Changing the Attribute Point / Physical Level System - Something more FLEXIBLE :)

[Lienn]

Well, i offered them a suggestion a while ago and i think i should post this here aswell:

A good way of "fixing" physical level would be mixing it with the already used (by like every MMO) automatic distribution.
The game would do a distribution based on base atributes of each race (the ones shown when you choose a race/clan) and raising it 8% at every level up (rounding down). This would generate a character with attributes going between 59 and 88 (59 for attributes that were 12 at level 1 and 88 for the ones that were 18). This would be the base attributes.

But to complete this, a player would receive 2.5 bonus points per level up (which would make it alternate between 2 and 3 or, is happens to look better, getting 2 points from 2-26 and 3 from 27-50), which would generate 122 bonus points.

But these bonus points would work differently from current one. ever point would worth always 1 attribute and the attribute cap (supposed to be around 170 at current system) would be pulled down to 120.

Having a cap in 120 would allow them to make attributes having a more expressive effect (since there wouldn't have peaks of 150~170 anymore), making characters more balanced and still protecting the customization freedom of players since they would still be able to distribute the bonus points at will.

The player still will be free to put as many points as he wants in any attribute, but i suggested that, once they surpass the cap, the number highlight in red to show that, for that level, the attribute is above cap. Also, the amount of bonus points was chosen as 122 to protect the right of every race/clan of playing any class. Since the smallest base attribute is 59 (and some classes would have 2 of those, like dunefolf that have 12 starting STR and VIT) so, when you use the bonus points on these attributes you can add 61 points on each, being able to reach the cap (120) with both attributes.

This way would be protected the idea of, as example, a dunefolk to being able to tank as GLA just as well as a Hellsguard, even though the starting atributes of dunefolk isn't favorable to this role.

No matter how much i think about this, it was the best way to deal with physical level without having to use traditional systems like automatic attributes distribution based on class. Specially because using low values the player wouldn't really need to reassign bonus points unless he's retiring a class, because 59 base attribute plus 15 from traits already offer 74 points in a attribute with minimal base value (103 if the class has a starting base attribute of 18), making reassign good but not a must to play effectively every time you change class.

[Kiara]

I had an idea for this I posted on another site.

We keep the physical level.
Rather then having stats shared amongst the classes, each class would have they're stats saved to the weapon. That way if you decided to change from Gladiator to Conjurer you could do so with minimal down time (since the conjurer stats would be where you left them, high INT MND and PIE).

Hi ESAR,

Some good ideas. I think the players' favorite choice in this Poll Question (#2) is something similar to what you're saying above: When you switch to a different Class, your Stats will *mostly* switch to fit that Class (so changing to a Conjurer will move the stats to a high INT / MND / PIE setup). But with a small pool of extra points to customize it a bit.

I'd be happy with this change soon. It's just too painful to switch between 2 drastically different classes right now.

[Kiara]

So we can have a cheat character in minutes? Or to devalue the stat system more for the sake of balance.

"Listen up people we're going to face a boss with a lot of magic attack next, so max out your mdef stats now"

There's a reason why you couldn't completely redo your stats in a matter of moments. Of course the fact that you could redo your stats in the first place had to be balanced to the point where stats matter very little with caps and forumlas.

Hi kukurumei,

How is having a system to change your class's stats more easily a "cheat character"?

I think we have to ask Square-Enix and the FF XIV Team what their vision of "Final Fantasy XIV" is. I understand your sentiment of wanting to be devoted to 1 class (or take longer to switch classes), but I'd say that was valid if this was Final Fantasy XI during Years 1 - 3 or so (where it took most people 1/2 a Year to a *Year* or more) to reach Level 75. You were devoted to a specific job and it took a long time to reach Max Level.

In FF XIV, it took 1 player 3 WEEKS to reach Max Rank 50 (the Japanese Archer player), and with the new faster SP patch recently, people are easily getting to Rank 50 much faster than before.

I got Rank 50 in both of my mage classes months ago. So what now? I'm stuck playing a maxxed out Mage class with NO End Game Content?

The way that FF XIV seems to be going (sort of) is like a Final Fantasy V or Final Fantasy Tactics with lots of different "Jobs" at your disposal. People reach Max Level too fast in this game. So the "style" of this game seems to lend itself to be more like a "try out lots of different Jobs (Classes) and switch around"-style, than a traditional "dedicate yourself to 1 Class for years"-style of RPG.

Right now, it's a complete pain and nightmare to try and switch between your Max Rank Class and something different. If people are curious why this is a problem, for the limited "end game content" we have now (NMs, Faction NMs), imagine trying to participate in these events one day, and then the next day, you try to do Guildleves with a new Class you want to experiment on (e.g., from Pugilist (Max Rank) to Conjurer). And then the 3rd day, you're back to fighting NMs again.

You can't do it unless you're super diligent, staying up for Hours, waiting for "Reassign Points" Button to highlight again, so you can Reassign more points, and take ~10 - 12 hours to move all your stat points around. It's inconvenient, not fun, and it's counterintuitive to the style of game FF XIV is right now (easy to reach Rank 50, nothing to do at max Rank).

Again, if the idea was to slowly build your 1 Class and devote yourself to it (like FF XI early years), that's understandable, but that's not what FF XIV is.

[kukurumei]

Again, if the idea was to slowly build your 1 Class and devote yourself to it (like FF XI early years), that's understandable, but that's not what FF XIV is.

There's a reason why player customized stat MMOs don't let you change your class ever unless with a rare extreme monetary trade off or make a whole new character.

Private server MMOs that hacked their games to allow instant stat changes...well it was fun and great for the first month, then everyone stopped, because there was nothing left to play with.

It's call a history lesson. Stat control, or in other words, making "builds" has always been a double edge sword. Games like Ragnarok Online lived on that for years.

Instant changing is a "cheat character" To be able to min/max yourself at any given time for any given situation is a cheat in MMO terms, because MMO live on stats. That's why FF14 attempted to balance it the way it did. The whole armory system revaluation is based on the same problem.

And the fact that devs are moving away from a stat system is exactly the reason. Too much build changing and subsequent balancing from it has lead to extreme dullness in the world of Eorzea.

Instant gratification formulas tend to have disastrous results in practice. This has been shown for the past decade by Private servers of various MMOs. The ones that have the most stable and high populations end up to be the one that don't give you any class in moments, any stats in moments, and any item in moments, while the cheat character servers tend to die to double and even single digit players.

There's a whole theory in testing and slew of compromises in the world of private servers, but empirical evidence makes it pretty clear again and again. It just doesn't work unless you like ghost towns.

[Naqaj]

Instant changing is a "cheat character" To be able to min/max yourself at any given time for any given situation is a cheat in MMO terms, because MMO live on stats. That's why FF14 attempted to balance it the way it did. The whole armory system revaluation is based on the same problem.

Don't make it instant then. There are plenty of alternatives. It's easy to agree with you that such an extreme solution leads to extreme problems, but that doesn't mean there is no way at all to make a free stat distribution system work.

[YUGON]

Ranks and Physical levels, I am fine with it.
But the stat system, I hate it!
Resetting the stats takes to long, and even if it was faster I am still not a fan of placing my stats around.
Change job, stats auto change. Hmm I need more dex. Guess I will go buy XXXX ring for more dex.
Make gear matter.

I totally agree with Lairin. I don't like the "make your own build" system.
If I change my job from Gladiator to Conjurer, my stats will change with the job. That way, If I need more STR, or MND, or whatever, I will go and buy me a good equipment. That will make a difference, not only in my stats (when buying a good equipment), It will make a difference the way people will see the Stats and the Equip.

Right now, a ring or an earring with INT +5, can cost 50k, or 100k. Why I'm going to pay that? The only difference I'll see it will be on my pocket.

I understand that may be poeple who likes doing his/her own build on the character, and If SE wants to give us the chance to make our own build, the need to stabilize the points.

Like Kiara said, what can we expect on putting 4, 8 or 10 points in STR, If we already have 130 or 140 points in that Stat?
I prefer the stats changes with the class, and If SE wants to give us some points in each level... I'm with it, but these points may only be like a "bonus" to add wherever we want.

[Jabo]

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

I agree.
In my opinion the best thing to be done here ist to make a unique stat/equip/skill menu for every class, where you can put your gear in and your skills.
Later you just change the class name (or weapon), much like in FFXIII, but whithout making constant change a tactical point. (penaltys for changing class during battle could stay as they are)

This means: No macro for every new equipment peace, no timeconsuming skill changes and no point allotment.

The game makes it way to complicated to change classes as it is now!

[RyneM]

I'd like to emphasize that Yoshi-P called them bonus points. If they're a bonus, why not keep the physical level and have each class individually earn a drastically reduced number or points, say 1 or 2, or even 0 on some level ups. Drastically increase their effect and take out respec-ing so that allocating each individual bonus point makes you think about how you play that class before you confirm your allotment. The system is fine, they just went friggin overboard.

[Mr_Gyactus]

Probably people is missing the correct point of view.

first at all, a quick answer. There is a MMO game called "guild something" where you can reset stats everytime you enter a town. Everyone is happy, so I don't understand this "cheat mode thing" you were talking about. I have played for years a game where stats were fixed, but there were classes and however it was frustrating. You could do only a role and PVP/PVE/MVP had different spec. A time consuming, that's all. But time changes.

Developers wanna add importance to stats.
If not, why do they ask for changing?
The actual system, where stats have a limited weight, can live with a soft reset.

But just try to imagine this situation (number for example).

Before
Fire III: 1,000 damage points. 750 comes from Fire III skill, 250 from stats.

If we put more importance in stats, it should change in something like

After
Fire III: 1,000 damage points. 300 comes from Fire III skill, 700 from stats.
(take numbers as example, not as a spoiler).

Stats stand for: char stats, equip stats, modifiers.

Now, try to think we normally play as a pugilist. If we want a good damage output, our first goal is to stack Strenght and Dex, because pugilist's skills takes advantage from those stats.

But if we want change in a conjurer, for example, or in a gladiator, we will unable to work properly until a full reset of stats.

Now a former pugilist changing into a conjurer
Fire III: 750 from skill + something from attributes (let's say 800 total)

After
Fire III: 300 from skill + something from stats: 350 damage total

So, we need a feature to change easily our stats point. If not, we will be unable to change "de facto" our role and class.

I prefer a system with personal allocation of stats, because there are different point of view when you play a class.
Someone can say "conjurer is better with stamina and int" someone else can say "I prefer Dex and mind" and some other "I wanna a conjurer with high int and mind".
Every idea can be great or a complete fail, but we are not in the position to judge how a player wanna develop and play his own character.
If we force players in only one direction, (stamina/INT conjurer) we create an easy path to follow for new players, but we chop off the imagination and creativity. We should add contents and options, not removing opportunities.

Now, I'm curious to see an answer from Yoshida-sama.

[YUGON]

Then a good point of what you say may be giving us both things.

First of all, down all the stats of jobs. I don't need 150 STR and Lv. 50. Maybe with 60 would be enough, then these points will have more importance (and the stats of the equipment too)

After that, let each job gain a certain number of static attribute points. something that let you play that job even If your main is a mage, or If your main is a DD and change to mage.

third, give us some way (Phisical level¿?) to earn some bonus points (1 or 2 in some levels) to allocate wherever we want.

That way I can allocate these points for DD characters, and still be able to play a mage without being lolMage.

P.D: Plus I still prefer automatic builds. I don't like to give points to my stats, but I understand the other way to think too. :P