Changing the Attribute Point / Physical Level System - Something more FLEXIBLE :)

[Kiara]

To: Producer Yoshida and the FF XIV Team,

Regarding Question #8 on your 2nd Player's Poll:

"The bonus point allotment system was intended to be a means by which players could customize their character's individuality. The free distribution of attribute points has given rise to certain problems, however, such as compatibility issues with the Armoury system, and the lowered effectiveness of the attributes themselves. In particular, this lowered effectiveness of attributes also extends its influence to items, and is therefore something that we feel must be rectified. To do so, we are currently looking into the following two options:

1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class.
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank.
3. Would you prefer option 1, option 2, or the current system?"


You said you were "surprised" by the results, but I wanted to shed some light on what some of us are feeling about the current Physical Level / Attribute Points System you have now, and why ~85%(!) of us voted to DUMP the current Physical Level System for something else:

1. The current Physical Level System makes it too hard to change Classes when needed.

You have to spend countless HOURS waiting to "Reassign Points" (and you only get a portion of your Attribute Points back) and wait a few more hours and reassign more points, etc., to finally move the points to the proper configuration you want (say, from a Gladiator to a Conjurer).


2. The current system marginalizes Attribute Points / Stat Points: You have to add an enormous amount of Stat Points (Attribute Points) to see a difference (if at all), with the current system.

Adding ~10 to 20 Attribute Points to any Statistic (STR, INT, DEX, etc.) seems to do very little in the game. But that's because you're allowing us to move HUNDREDS of Ability Points with this system. After waiting hours and hours, and finally getting most of your Attribute Points back, how can any system properly balance someone dumping, say, 150 Points into Dexterity (DEX)?

It "feels" like if you add 150 Points into STR, you should be killing weaker monsters for 9999 Damage or something , but instead you get a slight increase.


3. Related to the above, by allowing a system that can allow people to move / add HUNDREDS of Ability Points around, it really makes Equipment Stat (Ability) Bonuses feel useless in comparison:

If I can add 200 Ability Points into DEX, what good is that +5 DEX Ring (Jewelry) really going to do?

Each point of Statistic improvement on equipment should feel special and you should notice a difference in Combat. Right now, these pieces of equipment feel like they do very little, but it's all we have right now.

Suggestions:

• By having a system where you can switch Classes and have most of your Attributes switched over, with *some* Attribute Points to customize your Player, that will make it more fun and easier to change Classes in the game. That's why your Option #2 was the runaway favorite:
  
  "Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank."

So we get some customization, but also have our character easily swapped between different classes without having to wait hours upon hours in the current system.

And, you can now properly *balance* Attribute Points, and make them more meaningful in Combat. It would be nice to see a REAL difference if you just bought a +7 STR (Strength) Ring and saw a marked improvement in damage (not like it is right now, which is hardly noticeable, if at all).

Thanks for listening!

[Mr_Gyactus]

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

[Kiara]

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

Hi Mr_Gyactus,

Well first, the option was to keep the system "as is" (no changes), or go with choice 1 or 2 (which 85% of the people voted for).

But even if they gave us the idea you have to reset their points touching a crystal (pretty good idea ), it doesn't solve the problem with balancing the whole Attribute System in making each Point more meaningful.

When you get to Physical Level 50, you can move around HUNDREDS of Attribute Points. With the current system, do you think that new piece of Armor you just bought with "STRENGTH +2" is really going to do much? (It doesn't.)

The developers backed themselves into a corner with this current system. If they do away with Physical Level and restrict the Total # of Attribute Points you can move around, then they can make the Attribute Points mean more. That +5 MIND Ring you just bought will actually have a more noticeable effect in-game during Combat, instead of right now, where it means almost nothing.

[Mr_Gyactus]

Probably people is missing the correct point of view.

first at all, a quick answer. There is a MMO game called "guild something" where you can reset stats everytime you enter a town. Everyone is happy, so I don't understand this "cheat mode thing" you were talking about. I have played for years a game where stats were fixed, but there were classes and however it was frustrating. You could do only a role and PVP/PVE/MVP had different spec. A time consuming, that's all. But time changes.

Developers wanna add importance to stats.
If not, why do they ask for changing?
The actual system, where stats have a limited weight, can live with a soft reset.

But just try to imagine this situation (number for example).

Before
Fire III: 1,000 damage points. 750 comes from Fire III skill, 250 from stats.

If we put more importance in stats, it should change in something like

After
Fire III: 1,000 damage points. 300 comes from Fire III skill, 700 from stats.
(take numbers as example, not as a spoiler).

Stats stand for: char stats, equip stats, modifiers.

Now, try to think we normally play as a pugilist. If we want a good damage output, our first goal is to stack Strenght and Dex, because pugilist's skills takes advantage from those stats.

But if we want change in a conjurer, for example, or in a gladiator, we will unable to work properly until a full reset of stats.

Now a former pugilist changing into a conjurer
Fire III: 750 from skill + something from attributes (let's say 800 total)

After
Fire III: 300 from skill + something from stats: 350 damage total

So, we need a feature to change easily our stats point. If not, we will be unable to change "de facto" our role and class.

I prefer a system with personal allocation of stats, because there are different point of view when you play a class.
Someone can say "conjurer is better with stamina and int" someone else can say "I prefer Dex and mind" and some other "I wanna a conjurer with high int and mind".
Every idea can be great or a complete fail, but we are not in the position to judge how a player wanna develop and play his own character.
If we force players in only one direction, (stamina/INT conjurer) we create an easy path to follow for new players, but we chop off the imagination and creativity. We should add contents and options, not removing opportunities.

Now, I'm curious to see an answer from Yoshida-sama.

[kukurumei]

I prefer a system with personal allocation of stats, because there are different point of view when you play a class.
Someone can say "conjurer is better with stamina and int" someone else can say "I prefer Dex and mind" and some other "I wanna a conjurer with high int and mind".
Every idea can be great or a complete fail, but we are not in the position to judge how a player wanna develop and play his own character.
If we force players in only one direction, (stamina/INT conjurer) we create an easy path to follow for new players, but we chop off the imagination and creativity. We should add contents and options, not removing opportunities.

Now, I'm curious to see an answer from Yoshida-sama.

That's the problem with instant gratification formulas and reason many MMOs don't allow "stat resets". Once people find their ultimate build, they loose interest and move on.

That's why stat resets were done the way they were. If people kept changing stats every other day, they would find the perfect mix to do any event as long as they plan for it. AKA cheat character. So the team eventually made stats so small and capped.

If you want to get into the whole matrix theory of people are happiness when they don't get what they want, this is the best empirical evidence we have. Most private MMOs that let people stat reset tend to die really quickly. But official servers that make them work for their dream build...well that's different.

You talk about new age and all that, well here's to people leaving eh. A flexible job system and a flexible stat system turns into one of those stereotypical "win" buttons. People get bored and leave.

It's also no fun for a battle planner to make this big bad dragon, then a guild comes in equiped with a full Defense tank, and full int mages, then once it's all over people go back to partying with a str/dex builds and stam/int builds, then they do crafting, with full dex builds...

Let's throw in the old RagnarokOnline building example:
Everyone wants a blacksmith, but a full item blacksmith requires all Luck, so they can't level themselves. So there was a whole sub-culture based around the sought after full luck/dex blacksmith.

Now let's take the fact that you can reset stats. Full warsmith, then full luck smith. Anyone and everyone has a blacksmith, people get bored, economy crashes, RIP.

[Naqaj]

It's also no fun for a battle planner to make this big bad dragon, then a guild comes in equiped with a full Defense tank, and full int mages, then once it's all over people go back to partying with a str/dex builds and stam/int builds, then they do crafting, with full dex builds...

Why would any designer have a problem with that? Isn't that exactly what they would want players to do? Using all the game mechanics to their full extend to have fun in every aspect of the game, instead of creating highly-specialized one-trick ponies that are unsuitable for half the game?

Let's throw in the old RagnarokOnline building example:
Everyone wants a blacksmith, but a full item blacksmith requires all Luck, so they can't level themselves. So there was a whole sub-culture based around the sought after full luck/dex blacksmith.

You call it a sub-culture? What it means is that this system basically degraded Blacksmiths to afk characters. Since they were unfit for battle, you were either completely dependent on someone else grinding XP for you via party sharing, or you had to grind low-level mobs for ever, which many people avoided by using bots. How is that a good design? How does it in any way enhance your game experience?

[darkstarpoet1]

to me the easiest change would be a combination of both 1 and 2 and i used that as my comment after the survey. keep the physical level and just allow you to allot points for each class. if you are gladiator and change to conjurer why not allow the points from the last time you used conjurer to be there instead of taking multiple resets to fix your stats for that class. if you decided to be a different form of mage by changing stats you should be allowed to reallot points there in a limited number, but keep the generic stats you set the way they are. there are way too many classes to play and fatigue is reached too fast to make a person take a day to reallot their points. by the time they can get all their points moved that class is fatigued and time to move to another.

just allow me to use my points based off my physical rank to make each class the way i want and use those as my base stats anytime i go to a different class. sure i understand that would take a while to set each class up the first time, but i would rather take the time and do it once than every time i change to that class from now on.

[Rentahamster]

keep the physical level and just allow you to allot points for each class. if you are gladiator and change to conjurer why not allow the points from the last time you used conjurer to be there instead of taking multiple resets to fix your stats for that class.

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

Simply put, I think it's possible to keep the physical level, by allowing each class to respec it's attributes and they are then stored for each class so when you switch from one class to another they are what you had set them at. Same for actions too. A way to keep them saved for every class upon switching from one class to another.

I've mentioned this solution in other threads too, and I think it is a good compromise since it removes the frustration of repeated respecs, without having to drastically revamp the current system.

So Kiara's first problem with the game was this:

1. The current Physical Level System makes it too hard to change Classes when needed.

Having the game save the loadouts (stats, abilities, gear) of each job separately would save us lots of time by not forcing us to use slow macros and tedious respeccing to get back to what our state was the last time we played a particular job. This time wasting is especially hard on me, who has rank 50 in both melee and mage jobs.

It is arguable, however, that this way of doing things is still too complicated, and it would be easier and simpler to just assign points based on what class you are. I would still like to keep physical level, however, just to emphasize the horizontal leveling aspect of this game. A rank 1 phys level 50 Lancer should, in my opinion, be stronger than a rank 1 phys level 20 Lancer.

Another argument in favor of automatic stat assignment is because in the current FF14 system, none of the stats are important at all except for VIT and MND. This is the same problem that happened in Diablo II (every build just capped VIT), and so the developers of Diablo III have instituted auto-stat assignment.

..which brings us to point number 2.

2. The current system marginalizes Attribute Points / Stat Points: You have to add an enormous amount of Stat Points (Attribute Points) to see a difference (if at all), with the current system.

I like the idea of having the freedom to assign your own stat points, but until the issue of stat point imbalance is addressed, everyone is just going to pump VIT and MND anyway. Somehow, I want to make it so that for a melee class, for example, one stat point in STR would have just as beneficial an impact to the performance of your character as one point in VIT or DEX (of course, INT or PIE wouldn't matter as much. The reason this is so hard to balance is because the increase inf VIT and MND has a linear benefit, while STR, DEX, INT, and PIE are stuck with diminishing returns.

For every point of VIT you add, you get a set amount of HP. This always keeps increasing by a set amount in a linear pattern. However, with a stat like STR, you see a fairly noticeable improvement in damage from 16 STR to 80 STR, a slight improvement from 80 STR to 130 STR, and hardly any improvement in damage from 130 STR to 174 STR.

This creates an imbalance in the relative benefits of each stat compared to each other and leads to less freedom since the only obvious builds are the ones where you pump VIT first and then leave the rest of the stats as an afterthought.

Now, point #3 -

3. Related to the above, by allowing a system that can allow people to move / add HUNDREDS of Ability Points around, it really makes Equipment Stat (Ability) Bonuses feel useless in comparison:

Taking into consideration what I said above, I think this would be a good change:

Do away with the "diminishing returns" behavior of STR, DEX, INT, and PIE, and have them improve on a more linear relationship, directly proportional to the amount of stat points allocated.

Simplify the physical level up process. Why am I getting 22 attribute points on level up? All that leads to is more and more unnecessary clicking. Give me 6 attribute points to freely allocate every level. That's it. With less points to go around, each individual point has a greater impact, and all of a sudden, a +5 str ring doesn't seem so crappy anymore.

By having a system where you can switch Classes and have most of your Attributes switched over, with *some* Attribute Points to customize your Player, that will make it more fun and easier to change Classes in the game.

Your hybrid solution also sounds like an interesting compromise. Here's how I would tailor it to the game specifically:

Your character gets stats set automatically based on two variables only: class, and class rank. Here's where physical levels and character customization come into play - for every physical level up, you get 1 free stat point to assign to your character. So, a rank 1 p.level 1 lancer would have set stats and one free bonus point to assign to however he wishes, while a rank 1 p.level 50 lancer would have the same set stats, but 50 extra bonus points to assign however he wishes.

[Alcide]

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

I would love this system.
The OP has a point too talking about the efectivness of stats, but i guess both of the things can be addressed separately.

One thing I would also like to talk about about are the converter traits.
I guess they were supposed to be used to easily switch betwen different disciples but they have got 2 main flaws:
- they con't move enough stats, even using all of them you still need to reassign more then one time.
- they don't suffer the rank's cap, so are mainly used to add power to one disciple rather then ease the changing betwen them.

[Jabo]

Honestly I don't understand why we need to remove the physical level.
I was thinking 2 different way to have a good result.

1. Easy Easy Easy (Very-very-easy)reset. Every character can reset his point touching a crystal, in a camp or in a city. This works in some other MMO very well.
2. Create a Window, where we can create, save, select, and eventually modify 4-5 different setups of stats. I prefer this model, because I can create my own setup of stats (i.e. "healer) and use it when needed in a party, or create a "DPS" setup when I'm solo.

I agree.
In my opinion the best thing to be done here ist to make a unique stat/equip/skill menu for every class, where you can put your gear in and your skills.
Later you just change the class name (or weapon), much like in FFXIII, but whithout making constant change a tactical point. (penaltys for changing class during battle could stay as they are)

This means: No macro for every new equipment peace, no timeconsuming skill changes and no point allotment.

The game makes it way to complicated to change classes as it is now!