The Light of the Crystal

[RickiFake02]

Unless, are the beastmen truly "tempered"? I though they would volunteer to worship the primal, but does the primal still temper them, just in case?

I know that not all the primals temper their followers. Ifrit does, but Garuda and Titan do not. The Ixal and the Kobolds worship their primals but are not tempered by them. At no point do we have any evidence that Titan even does temper, because if he did, the Company of Heroes probably wouldn't have had a chance against him. Garuda can, but she would rather just kill/destroy, and only attempts to temper us when her first plan fails.

[Enkidoh]

The new beastmen daily quests reveal that, yes, the beastmen are tempered by their Primals. It was hinted at back in 1.0 when the sylphs mentioned that the Ixal and amalj'aa started getting more hostile not long after they had been visited by the Paragons and began to summon, stating that the Primals "darken hearts" and "poison minds", but the ARR beastmen daily quests actually directly state this, especially with the Brotherhood of Ash, who

reveal that they are virtually the only remaining amalj'aa who have not been tempered by Ifrit - hence their different coloured armour. They regard Ifrit as a fraud not deserving of their worship, and their tempered kin as fools who dishonour their ancestors by preying on the weak and defenseless - the Brotherhood instead take reverence in gaining true power through battle against worthy foes. Accordingly they're raging a bitter war of attrition against the tempered amalj'aa, which is why they invite the player to help them.

It's unclear about the other beast tribes, but considering the untempered sylphs remained green and docile while those who have been tempered turned purple and are clearly malevolent, I'm likely to accept that all the Primals temper their respective beast tribes, but each differs in the extent at to how they do this, Ifrit obviously being the one to do it the most, although I assume whoever the dragonkin's Primal is would probably be worse, given it's been tempering for years.

[Kyan]

Someone who paid more attention than I during 1.0 would have to clarify one point: is there any indication that Echo bearers other than the PC were ever directly contacted by Hydaelyn, or are we presumably unique in this regard?

At the end of 2.0's cutscene, as we ride out with Thancred, I recall Minfillia praying to Hydaelyn for our safety, with Hydaelyn replying. I would have to check.

[Viridiana]

At the end of 2.0's cutscene, as we ride out with Thancred, I recall Minfillia praying to Hydaelyn for our safety, with Hydaelyn replying. I would have to check.

You're right. I paid so much attention to the scenes I *did* gather info from that I kinda spaced on some of the others. Partially because the final cutscenes are a bit of a pain to treck through. >_>

[Anonymoose]

they mentioned that some people had 'walked the path' or something to that extent, but basically anyone that had gained enough mastery over the echo eventually saw something so despairing that they more or less gave up on doing anything at all. Sort of curious how *that* fits into anyone's theories.

At the time it mystified me, but knowing what I know now, I think the Walkers saw what Hydaelyn wanted them to - the coming of the Ascians and the inevitable fall of the Sixth Astral Era. Dalamud's descending wasn't part of the original plan, but the Calamity sure was; the final Ul'dah introduction quest was called Calamity Cometh, and the Imperial indoctrination of Ala Mhigan children includes the line, "Calamity is upon thee."

That said, where the power of the Crystals of Light is certainly. . .intertwined? with Hydaelyn's, I'd have to say that they are separate.
<snip>
While it's possible she's mustering up enough strength to help us defeat Lahabrea, I'd sooner say it's our drawing on the Crystals.

This seems quite reasonable. They don't seem to be part of her, just tied to her destiny. What that tie is I'm not entirely sure. The Crystals of Light seem to play their standard role of representing the elements that comprise the world. Hydaelyn, however, seems to be a little like IX's Gaia, the center of our network (however big it is) through which matter, life, and memories pass. If that's actually true, I also don't know. I just kind of took it for granted that Hydaelyn = Crystal of Light (seeing as she's a crystal who uses the word light in every sentence) and the Crystals of Light each represented an aspect of her lifeline. Beyond that I've got few ideas, never mind actual theories. When all else fails, I usually look back to Final Fantasy I - IV, on which Tanaka also worked, and especially III, in which he was the most heavily involved. Those appear to be the "roots" of XIV, and they do tend to line up with a lot of what I was saying before. You're right to question everything beyond that, however. I got nothin'.

EDIT: To add on to what you were saying, perhaps she's mustering up her strength through the gathering of the Crystals of Light, which were widely dispersed, well hidden, and impossible to collect, but are now in the hands of her champion. Perhaps they're kind of like Horcruxes, lol.

Are we certain that the conversations with Hydaelyn are even Echo-based? I always thought the consensus was that the star shower was the sign of awakening to Echo, but I could be off on that entirely.

The same things happen when we see Echoes and speak to Hydaelyn, we kind of zone out and/or pass out. However, that doesn't mean at all that it's Echo-based. That could just be how we experience all aether-related visions. I always had a theory that Damielliot, an Elezen in 1.0 prone to passing out all over the place, was seeing something. Now, the STARSHOWER ... that's a mystery. My theory on that shifts a lot and presently my theory is that it represents the arrival of Ascians in our realm and that it's Hydaelyn's way of saying, "This. This is your enemy. This is bad." Evidence for that? Ascians are here and this one time a Starshower happened just as one showed up. Not a rock solid case, eh? On my to-do list is going through every single main scenario quest and looking for Starshowers, comparing them to Version 1.0's appearances, and seeing if anything stands out.

<many Hydaelyn quotes highlighting the independent status of crystals and our hearts of light>

Tricky thing here is that it can be taken to support any of a number of views; I can't holdfast to it supporting any of them specifically. Again, I just take it for granted that the Mothercrystal of Light would choose a "heart of light" kind of person for the task, and the Crystals of Light would probably resonate with that. Like finds like, or in this case light finds light. We are meant to, after all, bring the Dawn of the Seventh Astral Era, according to the prophecies of Mezaya Thousand Eyes. There might be a deeper connection, and it might be the very one you speculate; I've just thought very little about it beyond the superficial, as "GO TEAM LIGHT!" has basically been the Final Fantasy Classic mantra forever and I assumed it was that simple, lol.

I'm not used to things being called anomalies if they have a known source.

Reminds me of a few cases on 1.0 when we were able to reach into peoples memories and bring stuff back. In Ul'dah we brought back a flower handed out by F'lhaminn, in Limsa Lominsa we brought back a balloonfish left on deck during an aurelia swarm, and in Gridania we brought back a piece of the treant that was so angered by Yda and Papalymo's arrival. Even if you do know the source, being able to touch hearts, speak all languages, and unstick items in time is pretty anomalous.

I still find it interesting that everything about the end of the cutscene says that she's been defeated entirely, that our throwing off her tempering and drawing out the Crystal of Light were just as damaging as all the fighting we did up to that point and then some.

That part I don't find so strange. Primals are made of three components: Aether, Prayers, Essence (and even that Essence part might just be "lots of similar prayers" or perhaps even beliefs and memories passed through the Mothercrystal and added to the Lifestream). The aether part is what comprises the physical being of the Primal and feeds their power. When they fight, they expend that energy, when they die, all that they've consumed is returned to the Lifestream to nourish the land. I also imagine that the Crystals of Light are more concentrated, more pure, and more powerful than any others of their aspect, more pure even than the flawless crystals ritualistically used by the beast tribes at the usual summoning ceremony. Fighting depleted her fuel, but ripping that crystal out of her blew a hole right through the tank.

Also, you didn't really touch on whether or not it's the Echo that allows us to absorb the Crystals. Unless you mean to say that they're both ultimately coming from Hydaelyn, but I don't think the Crystals are.

Only because I have no idea. When we picked them up, we went into one of our visions in Hydaelyn's realm and they became part of that glyph. The NPCs, however, still refer to us as somehow possessing them, as if we could pull them out and juggle them at any time. I don't know if that was a symbolic unlocking of power and they're still in our pockets or what. It could be that we absorbed them, it could be that Hydaelyn pulled them into her realm and combined the rainbow into pure white light to banish the darkness, it could be that I've got them in a little Gym Badge case in one of my many SCH AF pouches. Sadly, I've nothing to contribute on that, so far.

I've never actually been fond of [the theory that Hydaelyn tempered us].

Me, either. I forget who the first to bring that up was. It's a reasonable connection to make, it's just highly improbable given what we know. Primals use tempering as a way to gain worshipers and increase their power. There are no hints so far that non-primals can temper, that the Mothercrystal(s) are similar to primals, or that we are zealously devoted to Hydaelyn. Half the time we just look confused. I didn't seem much more excited about collecting the crystals of light and banishing the darkness than I did collecting ten adamantoise shell for that guy's ... uh ... stamina ... "potion." I'm an adventurer and a job needs doin'. I just happen to have an interesting client and little choice in the matter according to a few thousand year old book that I am in no way qualified to question when it keeps being right about me. Minfilia's way more on board than I am, and she's never even seen her.

At no point do we have any evidence that Titan even does temper, because if he did, the Company of Heroes probably wouldn't have had a chance against him.

I came across some translations of unreleased Version 1.0 quests a while back, and in one of them, the Company of Heroes actually does show up to fight Titan, and he actually does temper the belordofcrags out of them. One minute they're all, "From dust you came and to dust you shall return!" and the next it's, "Friend... Spare us your wrath, benevolent Lord of Crags! We live only to serve you!" As far as I can tell, the trick for tempering is just that the target holds the hell still for a few seconds while being deeply breathed on, which explains why it keeps happening to people being held prisoner. It's like you need to marinate in a good concentration of the haze for a few seconds, which makes sense to me, as it explains why Ifrit isn't just wandering across Thanalan like a 1970s flamethrower with a trail of everyone ever behind him as he marches on Ul'dah.

Also, we're 2/2 on Beast Tribe Quests involving non-tempered beast tribe members trying to save their race and its honor. Kobold and Sahagin come next. We'll have a lot more to go on when we see if the pattern continues.

[SorriorDragneel]

You know, there's one thing in particular about the idea of the echo being a direct gift from Hydaelyn and/or a form of tempering that always bugged me a bit the more I thought about it. Remember how back in 1.x when they were explaining how the echo works and what the path of the twelve did, that they mentioned that some people had 'walked the path' or something to that extent, but basically anyone that had gained enough mastery over the echo eventually saw something so despairing that they more or less gave up on doing anything at all. Sort of curious how *that* fits into anyone's theories.

Actually this could fit with the Ascian ambassador in 2.1 mentioning how if we truly had mastered our gift we would all agree. Or something to that effect at least LOL.

[Darske]

Just something interesting to consider, but the tempered beastmen have access to abilities that don't seem to be natural for them to have- abilities that reflect their primal, like Enfire and Coming Storm. Even if tempering and the blessing of light isn't the same, we do see the beastmen obtaining powers beyond their limits, abeit not as strong as Hydaelyn's blessing.

This leads me to believe that perhaps tempering is a sort of weaker or imperfect blessing, perhaps because it's the blessing of one element rather than Hydaelyn's "all made one". While the theory that we've been tempered has some merit, I'd be willing to buy into the idea that unlike tempering which strips your free-will, Hydaelyn's blessing is more "pure" than the primals', and as such gives us strength without taking our will.

[Kyan]

Minfilia's way more on board than I am, and she's never even seen her.

She has talked to her, though. We have not seen Minfillia visiting Hydaelyn for a tea party and pep talk yet, but if she can communicate with her, I would not be surprised if she has!

[Nahara]

It's like you need to marinate in a good concentration of the haze for a few seconds, which makes sense to me, as it explains why Ifrit isn't just wandering across Thanalan like a 1970s flamethrower with a trail of everyone ever behind him as he marches on Ul'dah.

I would also venture a guess and say that it's not exactly easy for a Primal to temper someone, either. Consider the whole situation that lead to the fight with Ifrit: the Amalj'aa captured as many people as they could manage and held onto them until it was time to call out Ifrit. If all it really takes is Ifrit breathing on you for a bit to fully temper you, it seems odd that the Amalj'aa would wait at all before taking them to be tempered.

So on top of needing to marinade someone in aether to temper them, maybe takes a bit of charging up before a Primal can attempt to temper someone. Garuda would be an exception due to the fact that her Ixali followers "are legion", as she puts it, and probably can provide her with more power faster.

[Viridiana]

This seems quite reasonable. They don't seem to be part of her, just tied to her destiny. What that tie is I'm not entirely sure.

EDIT: To add on to what you were saying, perhaps she's mustering up her strength through the gathering of the Crystals of Light, which were widely dispersed, well hidden, and impossible to collect, but are now in the hands of her champion. Perhaps they're kind of like Horcruxes, lol.

It may be that I've been reading too much Jim Butcher, but I kinda have an idea on this. We know that the Crystals of Light (directly or indirectly) make their Bearer stronger, and that Hydaelyn-the-Crystal wishes us to spread our light across the land. What I think she's aiming for is to "illuminate" Hydaelin-the-world and thus illuminate Hydaelyn-the-Crystal, if that makes any sense. . .

The same things happen when we see Echoes and speak to Hydaelyn, we kind of zone out and/or pass out. However, that doesn't mean at all that it's Echo-based. That could just be how we experience all aether-related visions.

Oddly, we don't seem to space out when absorbing the Lightning Crystal of Light. That, or Frixio's too polite to mention anything. We pass out when we absorb the Water Crystal, but that's at the same time we get the star shower and a visit with Hydaelyn, so that's hardly surprising. No way to tell with Fire or Earth. For Wind, either we don't space out or our recovery happens to line up well with Garuda's; if she could attack while we stand there zoning out, she definitely would. We also space a bit absorbing the Ice Crystal, judging by Alphinaud's concern for us.

Unfortunately, this leaves the Crystal absorption even less well-defined than I thought. Unless we actually are zoning out a moment when we absorb the Lightning and Wind Crystals, then we aren't even reliably experiencing Echo-symptoms when we absorb what should be high quantities of aether. At this point, I'm kinda willing to give the narrative the benefit of the doubt and assume we're not all there when we're absorbing things, if for no other reason than that we have no idea what's going on around us while this is happening.

On my to-do list is going through every single main scenario quest and looking for Starshowers, comparing them to Version 1.0's appearances, and seeing if anything stands out.

Try counting how many stars fall, either by sight or sound. . .

I've just thought very little about it beyond the superficial, as "GO TEAM LIGHT!" has basically been the Final Fantasy Classic mantra forever and I assumed it was that simple, lol.

I could be over-thinking it, but if so, at least I'm having fun doing it.

Even if you do know the source, being able to touch hearts, speak all languages, and unstick items in time is pretty anomalous.

Hmm. . .I could argue this, but I think I'd mostly be arguing semantics. Suffice to say, I think that if the Ascians know as much as they purport to know about Hydaelyn and if the Echo is straight from her, I don't think they'd be calling it an anomaly.

That part I don't find so strange. . . Fighting depleted her fuel, but ripping that crystal out of her blew a hole right through the tank.

Fair assessment. I don't really have anything on hand to counter that.

Only because I have no idea. When we picked them up, we went into one of our visions in Hydaelyn's realm and they became part of that glyph. The NPCs, however, still refer to us as somehow possessing them, as if we could pull them out and juggle them at any time. I don't know if that was a symbolic unlocking of power and they're still in our pockets or what. It could be that we absorbed them, it could be that Hydaelyn pulled them into her realm and combined the rainbow into pure white light to banish the darkness, it could be that I've got them in a little Gym Badge case in one of my many SCH AF pouches. Sadly, I've nothing to contribute on that, so far.

This is one of the more frustrating things, yes. We-the-players have no way to interact with the Crystals or even view them, yet the NPCs are commenting on the fact that we have them and telling us to take good care of them. It kinda leaves them floating somewhere in the aether, if you'll pardon the pun.

It's like you need to marinate in a good concentration of the haze for a few seconds, which makes sense to me, as it explains why Ifrit isn't just wandering across Thanalan like a 1970s flamethrower with a trail of everyone ever behind him as he marches on Ul'dah.

Just have to say, that's one of the more amusing visuals I've gotten lately.