Instanced Raids Unveiled!

[TheVedis]

I am totally fine with that being an option, as long as they don't get any good/rare items for steamrolling the dungeon.

they can get the same 30 gear you can get at 30
if they want the better stuff they can go do the 50 dungeon

as we have stated SEVERAL times before but you just dont seem to understand that concept

[Rentahamster]

they can get the same 30 gear you can get at 30
if they want the better stuff they can go do the 50 dungeon

as we have stated SEVERAL times before but you just dont seem to understand that concept

Yes, I know that in general rank 50 gear is better than rank 30 gear. I know you have stated this before, but that is not the point that I am trying to make. That you responded as such means that you don't understand what I am saying.

Rank 50 raid gear is probably better than rank 30 raid gear, yes. However, rank 30 raid gear is also probably better than rank 30 non-raid gear.

It is not good balance to have the best rank 30 gear be the easiest to obtain. Hardly anyone would bother to craft other rank 30 gear since there would be no point.

Furthermore, having rank 30 raid gear is not a sign of accomplishment since it would have been possible to steamroll through the dungeon with your rank 50 class, or have another rank 50 do it for you.

This is why doing the rank 30 dungeons as a rank 30 character should reward you appropriately with uber rank 30 gear, whereas doing the rank 30 dungeon as a rank 50 character should not reward you with uber rank 30 gear because you didn't earn it.

If you're R50 and get equip from that R30 dungeon its only a temporary thing anyway...so what's the point? You won't get any R/E unique stuff in the R30 dungeon that will last you to the end of the game...

If the current R30 NMs are any indication, then you will. There are several pieces of R30 NM gear that are useful for endgame.

Even if there wasn't any R30 raid gear useful for endgame, it doesn't matter if "it's only a temporary thing anyway", since it "temporarily" screws up the item value balance at the rank 30 range for everyone.

[TheVedis]

It is not good balance to have the best rank 30 gear be the easiest to obtain. Hardly anyone would bother to craft other rank 30 gear since there would be no point.

Furthermore, having rank 30 raid gear is not a sign of accomplishment since it would have been possible to steamroll through the dungeon with your rank 50 class, or have another rank 50 do it for you.

im a crafter mostly, and let me tell you now, it wont hurt the market.
the new NM gear didnt, i still sell ALOT of stuff thats not considered better then the NM gear, and it sells GOOD

also, if it isnt an accomplishemnt, why are you so bent on stopping 50s from obtaining it easier then a 30?
you keep contradicting your point here


either it matters, or it doesnt

if it isnt important, if it isnt an accomplishment, why do you even care if a 50 gets it easier then a 30?

a 50 crafter can craft 30 gear easier then a 30 crafter can, does that make it unfair to the 30 crafter that he might fail when a 50 wont?
of course it doesnt!


the logic you keep putting forth isnt making sense with the point your trying to make, you keep counter arguing yourself

[Rentahamster]

also, if it isnt an accomplishemnt, why are you so bent on stopping 50s from obtaining it easier then a 30?

...

if it isnt important, if it isnt an accomplishment, why do you even care if a 50 gets it easier then a 30?

I want to make it difficult for a rank 50 to get rank 30 raid gear so that rank 30 raid gear becomes an accomplishment.

Raid dungeons are supposed to be hard. If they are not hard, they have no meaning. If they are hard, and if they hard to everyone equally, regardless of what rank you are, then all the raid gear rewards become an accomplishment, not just the rank 50 raid gear.

If the raid content is easy, then the prestige of earning raid gear and the satisfaction and perceived value of that gear is diminished.

[TheVedis]

I want to make it difficult for a rank 50 to get rank 30 raid gear so that rank 30 raid gear becomes an accomplishment.

Raid dungeons are supposed to be hard. If they are not hard, they have no meaning. If they are hard, and if they hard to everyone equally, regardless of what rank you are, then all the raid gear rewards become an accomplishment, not just the rank 30 raid gear.

If the raid content is easy, then the prestige of earning raid gear and the satisfaction and perceived value of that gear is diminished.

then make it an accomplishemtn for you, no one is going to stop you from doing that

you are putting too much into caring about what other people do

[Rentahamster]

then make it an accomplishemtn for you, no one is going to stop you from doing that

I'm not going to run the R30 dungeon as a rank 30 if I don't have to. That would be silly. I'm going to run it as my rank 50 char, just like everyone else.

you are putting too much into caring about what other people do

That's because I'm thinking from the perspective of game design, not from the perspective of a player. Sometimes what the players think they want is not always the best thing for them.

I want all the raid items to have worth and meaning. I want them to be a significant and meaningful reward that acts as a reminder of all the hard work a player has done.

I want the R30 dungeon content to last longer than 2 weeks, since any content that is too easy quickly becomes boring. The longer each individual piece of content stays fresh in the players' minds, the longer I can spend developing new content and not having to rush it out.

[TheVedis]

I'm not going to run the R30 dungeon as a rank 30 if I don't have to. That would be silly. I'm going to run it as my rank 50 char, just like everyone else.


That's because I'm thinking from the perspective of game design, not from the perspective of a player. Sometimes what the players think they want is not always the best thing for them.

I want all the raid items to have worth and meaning. I want them to be a significant and meaningful reward that acts as a reminder of all the hard work a player has done.

I want the R30 dungeon content to last longer than 2 weeks, since any content that is too easy quickly becomes boring. The longer each individual piece of content stays fresh in the players' minds, the longer I can spend developing new content and not having to rush it out.

so youll do it at 50 because you can?

and that would be your right, no one would stop you from doing that

but what happens if you friends dont want you on a 50? they want you on a 30 character, would you go down to 30 to do it? or would you tell them to F off?
i personaly would use the character appropriate to the group, and id be very happy to have the CHOICE to do so


the r30 content again, is just that, r30 content, its nto meant to last as long as r50 content, why do you think yoshi is mentioning the hard r50 boss which people are going to have to figure out, and nothing about the r30 dungeon?

cuz guess what, the r30 dungeon is FILLER not meant to keep you occupied over and over and over, thats the r50 dungeons job

the r30 dungeon is filler til you get to the r50

[Airlea]

...This is why doing the rank 30 dungeons as a rank 30 character should reward you appropriately with uber rank 30 gear, whereas doing the rank 30 dungeon as a rank 50 character should not reward you with uber rank 30 gear because you didn't earn it...

So what's one of the big perks to grinding a job to 50? It makes a lot of other stuff easier. That's part of your reward. Part of what you earned in achieving max rank. It sounds strangely like you're suggesting that no one would ever need gear for another r30 job again, and that if they do, they should only be able to obtain it on that job before they hit r30.

...If the current R30 NMs are any indication, then you will. There are several pieces of R30 NM gear that are useful for endgame...

Did you farm any of that gear? Did you make sure you were on a rank appropriate job before engaging the NMs? I mean, surely a r50 shouldn't be able to solo and obtain gear for another job. They didn't earn it amirite?

[Rentahamster]

So what's one of the big perks to grinding a job to 50? It makes a lot of other stuff easier. That's part of your reward. Part of what you earned in achieving max rank.

Yes, of course it makes stuff easier. And that's perfectly fine when applied to the over-world. It's not fine when applied to dungeons that are designed with difficulty in mind. It especially clashes with the stated design goals of "rewarding skillful play".

Did you farm any of that gear? Did you make sure you were on a rank appropriate job before engaging the NMs? I mean, surely a r50 shouldn't be able to solo and obtain gear for another job. They didn't earn it amirite?

Of course I farmed the gear. No one in their right mind is going to fight stuff at a lower rank if they don't have to. That is why in certain applications, like a specifically designed raid dungeon, level caps are good to maintain value and gameplay longevity.

[Airlea]

Of course I farmed the gear. No one in their right mind is going to fight stuff at a lower rank if they don't have to. That is why in certain applications, like a specifically designed raid dungeon, level caps are good to maintain value and gameplay longevity.

So in other words I just got the "well, that's different..."

It's different because it's NMs that drop r30 gear? 99% of it you won't use endgame, and even then it's situational. No different than the gear from the 30 dungeons I'd imagine. That's why so few care if r50s could roll through it. Let them. They'd be farming temporary gear for the grind on another job. I really don't see what the big deal is. Let other people play how other people want to. It's not like this would somehow prevent you from choosing to do the content at a lower rank.