Instanced Raids Unveiled!

[Xenor]

in XI you had to sit out on stuff like Bahamut v2, or Omega/Ultima as well, if more than 18ppl showed up. .

It's one thing sitting out because you have too many show up, but quite another to sit out because you're one or two members short of the requirement. No one is asking to enter this dungeon with 9 or 10 people. We're asking to enter it with 6-7 in a situation where 12-15 people show up. If 9 turn up then tough luck on the 9th, but the content should be manageable (although more difficult) with 6 or 7. The fact the developers are willing to consider lowering the requirement at all tells you this.

[TirionCrey]

It's one thing sitting out because you have too many show up, but quite another to sit out because you're one or two members short of the requirement. No one is asking to enter this dungeon with 9 or 10 people. We're asking to enter it with 6-7 in a situation where 12-15 people show up. If 9 turn up then tough luck on the 9th, but the content should be manageable (although more difficult) with 6 or 7. The fact the developers are willing to consider lowering the requirement at all tells you this.

If a group of 6-7 playere are able to finish it(even with more difficulty) the whole purpose of balancing it around 8 players is stupid. Endgame in XIV is gonna be tuned for 8man PTs. You knew that since the Letter from the Producer from the beginning of the year...if you're now getting "angry" about that, go figure...I'm not against being able to ENTER the dungeon with less than 8 people, cause that requirement seems kinda strange...but in all honestly...they shouldn't be able to beat it with less than 8ppl...maybe get some stuff done in the dungeon, but if they are able to comlpetely beat with less than 8, the whole "difficulty and challenge" debate would go out of hand. Its tuned for 8 and its gonna be difficult for 8, making it possible to beat with less than 8, makes the whole reason of it being tuned for 8 obsolete.

Once people get better gear over time and stuff, the challenge will be less and less for 8man groups(and groups of 6-7 might be able to beat it)...but that's where new content tuned for those people should be rdy so...this is an endless cycle and if they start making it faceroll from the getgo...I'm done and say goodbye.

[Airlea]

but in all honestly...they shouldn't be able to beat it with less than 8ppl...maybe get some stuff done in the dungeon, but if they are able to comlpetely beat with less than 8, the whole "difficulty and challenge" debate would go out of hand.

Your 8 people aren't my 8 people aren't his 8 people. It's easy to say no one should be able to beat it with less than 8 people, but realistically you'd be alienating most of the player population in the process. By default, most players are average in skill level. To raise the difficulty to the level you suggest would mean targeting only the most elite players and making it near impossible for them. Anything less would be mean they could more than likely accomplish the same with 7 people.

[TirionCrey]

Your 8 people aren't my 8 people aren't his 8 people. It's easy to say no one should be able to beat it with less than 8 people, but realistically you'd be alienating most of the player population in the process. By default, most players are average in skill level. To raise the difficulty to the level you suggest would mean targeting only the most elite players and making it near impossible for them. Anything less would be mean they could more than likely accomplish the same with 7 people.

I'm not talking about the best elite super awesome Chuck Norris players only. But just going by the fact that 1 out of 8 players equals 12.5% performance of the group(assuming everyone is on the same lvl skillwise) and being able to do it with 6-7 people, that equals beating the dungeon with a performance equal to 75-87.5% of the capability of a 8man group. Sorry if a group is able to complete a dungeon with only 75% of the capable performance of a full PT, then the dungeon tuning can be deemed as a fail. Cause a difference of 25% in neccesarry performance to get it done is way more than it should be to call it "difficult".

PS: This is all assuming that 8man group consists of reasonable players who know how to play(common sense and knowledge of game mechanics, not the uber pros who deal 2% more dmg than the average pro blah blah BS). Players not able to play shouldn't be able to clear this even with 10+ people...

And having played a lot of MMOs I know that these players still provide the majority of the playerbase. But tuning everything around stupidity doesn't make it better. I'm just asking of tunement where common sense and "knowledge" of your class is needed, rather than just going in and do whatever, it will work out anyway stuff.

PPS: I don't want the dungeon to be tuned for the average players, cause the average in an MMO is somewhere between stupid and ignorant. The endgame should be tuned around the 30% of players who actually know what they are doing and are able to think.

[Airlea]

PS: This is all assuming that 8man group consists of reasonable players who know how to play(common sense and knowledge of game mechanics, not the uber pros who deal 2% more dmg than the average pro blah blah BS)

Again, your reasonable and knowledgeable players aren't my reasonable and knowledgeable players. Your common sense isn't my common sense. This is why it's such a touchy thing. Everyone has a different opinion as far as what difficulty really is, and there's no true right or wrong answer.

[TirionCrey]

Again, your reasonable and knowledgeable players aren't my reasonable and knowledgeable players. Your common sense isn't my common sense. This is why it's such a touchy thing. Everyone has a different opinion as far as what difficulty really is, and there's no true right or wrong answer.

Well there are some standards that people refer to in having "common sense"...so there is no argueing about that. Either you have it, or you don't, but you can't have some sort of common sense and another person has part of your common sense. If I can earn 10 dollar in 5minutes, or 5 dollar 10minutes, your common sense will tell you whats the better choice and there is no variation in that.

[Joeking]

Well there are some standards that people refer to in having "common sense"...so there is no argueing about that. Either you have it, or you don't, but you can't have some sort of common sense and another person has part of your common sense. If I can earn 10 dollar in 5minutes, or 5 dollar 10minutes, your common sense will tell you whats the better choice and there is no variation in that.

$10 in 5 mins vs $5 in 10 mins

I would assume $10 in 5 mins is some kind of act which falls under prostitution while the $5 is something more law abiding, common sense is subjective...

[Val_Rhys]

If a group of 6-7 playere are able to finish it(even with more difficulty) the whole purpose of balancing it around 8 players is stupid. Endgame in XIV is gonna be tuned for 8man PTs. You knew that since the Letter from the Producer from the beginning of the year...if you're now getting "angry" about that, go figure...I'm not against being able to ENTER the dungeon with less than 8 people, cause that requirement seems kinda strange...but in all honestly...they shouldn't be able to beat it with less than 8ppl...maybe get some stuff done in the dungeon, but if they are able to comlpetely beat with less than 8, the whole "difficulty and challenge" debate would go out of hand. Its tuned for 8 and its gonna be difficult for 8, making it possible to beat with less than 8, makes the whole reason of it being tuned for 8 obsolete.

I don't think people are upset that the dungeon is "tuned" for 8 people - it's that you can't enter otherwise. I think people are drastically overlooking the disparity in player skill in FFXIV (and really any MMO). The reality is, good players can accomplish tasks with much less players than mediocre/bad players. See: any FFXI endgame activity. So if the content is tuned for 8 average players, 8 good players are going to steamroll it. And I really mean that. I can't think of many FFXI events that top tier linkshells couldn't do with half the maximum available players (or even less). Now, I admittedly don't know how this will translate to FFXIV. Obviously since the maximum number is only 8, it may not mean 4 good players can clear the content early on (but who knows).

So, simply saying "if it's designed for 8 means it shouldn't be able to be cleared by 7" is much harder to implement than many people think. With the exception of using silly tricks like 8 pressure plates to unlock a door. But that won't change the difficulty of the actual encounters.

[Xenor]

If a group of 6-7 playere are able to finish it(even with more difficulty) the whole purpose of balancing it around 8 players is stupid. Endgame in XIV is gonna be tuned for 8man PTs. You knew that since the Letter from the Producer from the beginning of the year...if you're now getting "angry" about that, go figure...I'm not against being able to ENTER the dungeon with less than 8 people, cause that requirement seems kinda strange...but in all honestly...they shouldn't be able to beat it with less than 8ppl...maybe get some stuff done in the dungeon, but if they are able to comlpetely beat with less than 8, the whole "difficulty and challenge" debate would go out of hand. Its tuned for 8 and its gonna be difficult for 8, making it possible to beat with less than 8, makes the whole reason of it being tuned for 8 obsolete.

Once people get better gear over time and stuff, the challenge will be less and less for 8man groups(and groups of 6-7 might be able to beat it)...but that's where new content tuned for those people should be rdy so...this is an endless cycle and if they start making it faceroll from the getgo...I'm done and say goodbye.

It all depends on the level of difficulty they're aiming for. Difficult and challenging for the average player? For the hardcore player? For the top 1% of players? It's doubtful it will be the latter or even the middle option because they want content to appeal to everyone and this is the first real content they're adding. They will want the average player able to beat the content even though it's difficult and challenging for them. Problem there is the top 1% won't find it as difficult and challenging as a more casual player therefore you can get away with doing it with a man or two less. Additionally the hardcore and top 1% of players have more classes ranked up, more cross class skills, more HQ gear etc. and this too reduces the level of challenge.