So apparently FFXIV-App is banworthy now?

[Hitome]

It's not what was said, but how it was said. People have every right to set the standards of their own groups...however, what this community needs more of are people willing to teach and give advice to players to help make them better, and bringing them into a friendly atmosphere once they start participating in end-game content. Not people who feel the need to kick someone just because they made a tiny mistake (one-and-done).

If banning parsers gets rid of at least SOME of the "OMG Y U CANT MAD DEEPS BRO? U FAIL NUB, GTFO" crowd, I'm all for it. Not saying said poster is of this crowd, but from my extensive experience in MMOs, this is usually this crowd setting outrageous standards for content...sometimes to cover for their own faults.

That's why we have these forums. ^^ You come here to teach (as well as learn) and improve at your job so that you may perform better when you are in-game.

It is not the job of someone in-game to teach a player who comes unprepared when there are many different resources out there that could do it much better without wasting time of either party.

However, there forums are often very toxic at times as well..

Speaking of which: many of the posts in this thread berate others or would be considered harassment/rude. You know this violates the forum ToS, right?

[Ryel]

This is generally how I am hearing it related to the real world

Person A picks up a knife and points it at person B asking for money, the Cops come on person B plead and arrests person A

Person A try to to whip up a storm on the local news paper that Cops are arresting people for holding a knife, bla bla bla, unfair, human rights, etc.

It doesn't change the fact that you try to use something to rob others, and claim it was a problem with the way you hold your knife.

This just in:

Parsers are life threatening

I wont argue the potential for harassment that can occur from people using parsers to compare the DPS of their party members. However that isn't the fault of the parser itself, A parser is a just a tool, a calculator to be more specific that is only performing functions that a person could do on their own given enough time.

If the warning, because nobody was banned (not sure where this is coming from) was given for player harassment then that is an argument on different grounds altogether and should be debated separately.

Simply put people are up in arms that a SE GM was issuing a warning to someone for the mention of a program that is basically doing the same thing as a desktop calculator and in no way hurting the game or interfering with its files in any way negative or otherwise.

This is the issue at hand.

[Hitome]

Holy crap people.
Harassment this malicious that, griefing, report, cry cry cry.

It is just a data logging tool.

When did we start having to handle everybody with bubble wrap and mittens?

-Harassment-
The act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.

Not harassment: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.

Harassment:
Monday:Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
Noon: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
6pm: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.

Tuesday:Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
Noon: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
6pm: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.

Wednesday:Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
Noon: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
6pm: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
6:01: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
6:02: Hey Bob, your dps sucks.
6:03 Hey Bob, your dps sucks.

Anyone see the difference?

I love you.

I'm sorry there is far more evidence that that disputes what you claim.... the problem is, none of it is good enough for "you". Community reps telling sites there is no problem with it, community reps stating that a program that does NOT "directly control anything for the FFXIV client" is NOT against the rules. is just all not good enough for you. Parser falls under the SAME exact category... why?? Because it ALSO does NOT "directly control anything for the FFXIV client" . He didnt say it was BECAUSE it was Vpn. He said it was BECAUSE said program did not "directly control anything for the FFXIV client". Please show everyone where SE has ever stated That a parser was the exception to this. Please show your evidence that community reps never Ok'd parsers and Twin app to the representatives of BG and Zam. Please show the evidence that the creator of Twin app didnt get the Ok from SE reps. Please show the evidence that he didnt also provide them with the source code for his program to make sure they know whats in it. By all means... point me in the direction of all the people banned from the forum from posting about parsers since launch... All the people banned from game since launch for all openly talking about parsers in game? I'm sure their are literally millions of log entries they could go through to smack people with a ban hammer.

By your logic Voice communication 3rd party programs for gameplay are also against tos since they provide a gameplay advantage over the people who have to type text in game, because they get to use their voice and freely communicate in the middle of battle without suffering performance. It also allows users to bypass the way SE is able to monitor your communication for discipline purposes. Talking about them openly would also be bannable. By your logic it is so simply because the rep didnt mention them by name when talking about programs that do not "directly control anything for the FFXIV client" in a thread that was specific to tunnel 3rd party software. You know... that thing so many people are using to play the game since you know... they feel it makes things easier if youre able to better commuinicate? You know that thing SE says they wont implement because text logs allow them to monitor things? Nope... still not seeing the ban hammers on all the people who demand Voice chat 3rd party programs to join their party finder events... or all the players who toss around their TS, Mumble, Vent info in game.

Once you show that a parser does in fact "directly control anything for the FFXIV client" then maybe I will waste my time with this nonsense from you. Because you have literally NOTHING to show that doesnt fall under the same category. All you have is a screen shot of a guy being a jerk to someone, and getting a GM call, and a GM not having a clue but wanting to punish him for the harassment.




Meh.... he can attempt to belittle all he desires. Instead of arguing with logic and deductive reasoning, he like to reply to people with an arrogant sarcastic tone when he is flat wrong. Which is why i came in and told him to have a seat, because he has no clue as to what he is talking about, but insists on replying to everyone on how right his is. So he can belittle all he likes. That's all he has here....A person with logical deductive reasoning could understand that VPN was ok BECAUSE it did not "directly control anything for the FFXIV client", NOT because it was specifically VPN.. He didnt come in and say "OH! OfCOURSE VPN is allowed!!!" He said "Oh that program youre talking about is fine BECAUSE it does not "directly control anything for the FFXIV client". Pretty logical... You have no example, no evidence that someone who wasnt a jerk to someone was banned for parsing....

So 3rd party tools are against the Tos, even though reps have said that one which DID NOT directly control anything for the FFXIV client was ok, yet another 3rd party program that also does not "directly control anything for the FFXIV client" isn't? Where is his evidence for this? So all 3rd party program is against the rules, yet SE has allowed 3rd party programs that do NOT "directly control anything for the FFXIV client" to florish in game, and on the forum, but then if you are a jerk to someone while using the 3rd party program it is NOW against the rules?? So which is it? They are ALL not ok... or they are ok, until youre a jerk? So SE only bans Bots, and hackers if they are jerks now, and allows the polite ones to run about? LOL

A very well written retort. Why can't you be on my server? T_T

[Velox]

"Parsers do not modify anything, they are strictly read-only programs that collect data from the game and organize it for the user."

"2.5 Data Mining.
You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorized third party software."

/thread

If you guys want to argue the logic of such a rule and where it fits into the whole grand scheme of "fun enhancement," then that's another story. BUT until official word from SE says otherwise, parsers fall into the Data Mining category of in-game no-nos and anyone who tries to argue the opposite has no case to present.
Don't get me wrong, I am curious on what SE has to say on this issue. Maybe some of the arguments raised by both sides won't fall on deaf ears. Of course, you never know with SE, so I won't get my hopes up.

[kukurumei]

This is the issue at hand.

no it's not, you may have forgotten about it in so many pages of tunnel vision.

This issue is someone got slapped for using an unsanctioned program that affects gameplay to grief other players. and here you go "Oh it would have never been a problem because it's not unsanctioned".

A duh. tool used for doing bad stuff. Both the tool and the person doing it are both relevant. Or do you not get why we ban and restrict a whole lot of stuff, from everything from the length of a knife, to the carrying of a gun, to the drinking of alcohol.

Issue at hand my rear, if anything you're trying to go on tangents on the key issue: unsanctioned program that affects gameplay to grief other players is a major offense.

/thread

If you guys want to argue the logic of such a rule and where it fits into the whole grand scheme of "fun enhancement," then that's another story. BUT until official word from SE says otherwise, parsers fall into the Data Mining category of in-game no-nos and anyone who tries to argue the opposite has no case to present.
Don't get me wrong, I am curious on what SE has to say on this issue. Maybe some of the arguments raised by both sides won't fall on deaf ears. Of course, you never know with SE, so I won't get my hopes up.

Datamining is frown upon the same reason you don't heckle at a movie theater or post spoilers in a book club.

And you can say the whole ToS argument revolves around the same concept. Stop trying to ruin otherwise fun things for everyone, just because you think otherwise.

[Wizhard]

Alright, i have the combat log over the half of my screen and im a savant and can instantly read all that data. Can i tell people their dps is bad now?

[Ryel]

Reply

Except you keep forgetting the fact that this and data-mining are two entirely different concepts, the only data a parser collects is that which is readily available in the logs the game is already showing you.

Everything a parser can do can be replicated by using the in-game screen shot function and manually calculating the numbers out yourself, however this is a process which usually takes quite a lot of time (depending on who you are obviously) parsers only shorten the time it would take to do this.

To say a parser by nature is some malicious tool used for the harassment of players is inaccurate, people will pick any number of things to harass players about which is why it would be more accurate for the player to have received a warning based on the grounds of player harassment.

Once again to say that a parser itself is against the ToS as a 3rd party program is no different than claiming that the calculator that comes installed with every copy of Windows is a 3rd party program as in the end they will fulfill the same function which is to calculate numbers.

The quote people keep using for basis from the community rep is relevant here because while that thread was specifically talking about VPNs (which btw per that quote SE takes no issue with) VPN usage has a much larger effect on data from the game than a parser does seeing as they are directing your connection's route from your location to the server's.

This has a much larger visible impact on the game when it is making the difference of players being able to perform in content (See: Titan, Coil, anything that requires dodging).

A parser does nothing other than show you information you already have access to, there is no manipulation of data in any shape or form.

If you wish to take issues with parsers in general then by all means take it up with the side of player harassment which i said i fully agree that they can be used to that effect, but that is an issue with player attitudes not with the tool itself.

[Axidrain]

/thread

If you guys want to argue the logic of such a rule and where it fits into the whole grand scheme of "fun enhancement," then that's another story. BUT until official word from SE says otherwise, parsers fall into the Data Mining category of in-game no-nos and anyone who tries to argue the opposite has no case to present.
Don't get me wrong, I am curious on what SE has to say on this issue. Maybe some of the arguments raised by both sides won't fall on deaf ears. Of course, you never know with SE, so I won't get my hopes up.

well that would make sense if the parser didnt just get all the data from the combat log. what is there to mine? everything is out in the open lol

[blowfin]

Yes Zam a site that has been known in the past to provide easy transport of keyloggers and such to gamers PCs.

Can you provide a link to verify this claim? It's just speculation until proven otherwise. Do you see what I did there?

What's more well known as truth, is the fact that FFXIV-APP got the nod of approval from SE. A request to see some kind of legally binding document before you're convinced is quite frankly, ludicrous.

[blowfin]

well that would make sense if the parser didnt just get all the data from the combat log. what is there to mine? everything is out in the open lol

Plus the fact that the tool is actually sanctioned by SE, and is hosted one of the premier sites.