Making WAR More Diverse/Fun Again

[NefGP]

I am aware, and it was deliberate, not only in differentiating it from FF11's scythe-wielding suicide soldier but also in expressing my general disdain for everything FF11. FF11 is my constant example of everything done wrong, and I feel like I could insert "NIN" into everything Gwaeron has thus far said as an example of what a broken disaster like this actually looks like.

yeah that's why FFXI won multiple awards and has been the most successful & profitable entry in the series' history. XI was far from perfect, but it sounds like you were just bad at the game. XI still has a better job system than this game (among other attributes that are better) despite the fact that XIV fixed a lot of what was wrong with XI (crafting, gathering, skilling up and gear swapping to name a few gripes).

[Gamemako]

yeah that's why FFXI won multiple awards and has been the most successful & profitable entry in the series' history.

FF11 won very few awards and is the most profitable FF title because it has run so damn long with so many expansions. That constant development train can provide more and more profit under a single name as time goes on, while that amount of development time would otherwise fall into three or four titles needing new engines and so on. Anyway, I created a long response about all the reasons nobody in his right godsdamned mind would touch that piece of digital excrement and why it's "successful" (hint: it's the FF name and nothing else), but we've gone far enough off topic.

WAR is not in need of a DPS stance. It is opposed to the interests of balance and is not fun. Stances are a design concession, not a feature. You are not using Sword Oath and Shield Oath because hitting the button to change every 2-5 minutes is a delightful experience. They exist to serve a mechanical purpose.

[Kitru]

As for Sword Oath mechanics, at least from my phase 3 data, it adds a 50 potency attack to each autoattack (was 25). This is greater than a 50% autoattack damage buff.

It still does. It adds an extra attack with every auto-attack you make. Auto-attacks are 83.33 potency per GCD over time, so, with a swing speed of 2.32 (Curtana's; keep in mind, that's *slow* for the swords; Allagan and Break Blade are both 2.16), you're getting an extra 53.9 potency per GCD from Sword Oath, which is a ~65% improvement in total damage from your auto-attacks.

[TitanACU]

We already figure that Dark Knight will be a tank role. I for one, am ok with this. it will be the high risk/high reward tanking that was supposed to be warrior. Dark Knight can use all kinds of leech life attacks while using some empowered abilities that use your own HP to cast(like darkness). This will require someone to actually learn their character or die endlessly. I want this class to not have any mitigation buffs but instead an alternate way of gaining a moderate amount of HP and to have something similar to Thrill of Battle with a 60 second CD. I saw a good player-based idea on the forums somewhere. It actually gained stacks of darkness to use abilities. This wouldnt be bad either but seems too much like 2.0 WAR.

[Deusteele]

@TitanACU: Yoshida commented during an interview that he views DRK as a dps role. This is the same interview where he discussed the possibility of changed GLD's +Enmity modifiers to make a dps job for it. There will never be a High Risk/High Reward tanking job, since that method often fails to live up to the High Reward and tanking is not a role that players in the metagame want chance to be a great factor.

[Kitru]

@TitanACU: Yoshida commented during an interview that he views DRK as a dps role.

Actually, he just used Dark Knight as Gladiator DPS as a hypothetical implementation to explain that they could remove the high enmity modifiers with the job change. He's never said anything about DRK actually being a DPS role, though GLA>DRK has been an example he's used multiple times in much the same way, though that's probably because it's the most obvious tank>DPS conversion so it comes to mind easily. He's never said anything about DRK being a confirmed dps job at all.

[NefGP]

MRD would make sore sense as a DRK than GLD. What's more intimidating, a guy with a sword and shield or a giant f'ing axe? Scythes were dumb as hell in XI (and thankfully already in use for their actual purpose in this game) and while they could always try a Greatsword class, I'd rather it just be an extension of MRD.

I still think GLD is more likely to branch off into RDM.

[Gamemako]

MRD would make sore sense as a DRK than GLD.

Mechanically, MRD works well as a Dark Knight in that the unique damage resource (HP) is recovered by abilities (Bloodbath, Thrill of Battle). This puts MRD in a good spot for a Dark Knight job. Dark Knight is traditionally a sword-and-board job, but has optionally used axes in several titles. Leon, the very first Dark Knight, carried an axe as his default equipment and had high axe proficiency. Either way, it works and has long made good sense to me. Only potential problems are equipment sets (already addressed) and the slight feeling that you're wasting a disruptive mechanic where it could be used elsewhere (like making GLA into something else).

I still think GLD is more likely to branch off into RDM.

Could happen, but is mechanically a monster pain to do. Let's say Bulwark and Shield Swipe are fine, like Featherfoot and Haymaker for DPS job MNK. That leaves the following issues:

Near-useless abilities:
Rampart
Flash
Convalescence
Provoke
Awareness
Tempered Will
Sentinel

Dubious abilities:
Shield Bash

Near-useless traits:
Enhanced Rampart
Enhanced Convalescence
Enhanced Awareness
Enhanced Sentinel

Dubious traits:
3 Vitality traits (can be modified, obviously)
Enhanced Flash (effect is not useless, but Flash itself is because you're not a tank)

There are a lot of things you can accept as limited in scope, like Bulwark and Shield Swipe, but fitting the useful stuff into a Red Mage and balancing the job is nearly impossible without simply replacing many of these tank cooldowns. At the very least, you can justify inverting them if you take a Dark Knight job, but you can do nearly nothing with them aside from straight-up canning 12/28 abilities and traits and otherwise rewriting 3-5 more.

//EDIT: Or maybe it's better to look at it in terms of what you can use.

Skills which are innately useful (7/17):
Fast Blade
Savage Blade
Riot Blade
Shield Lob
Rage of Halone
Fight or Flight
Circle of Scorn

Traits which are innately useful (2/11):
Enhanced Fight or Flight
Enhanced Rage of Halone

Skills which are not necessarily totally useful but we can accept as part of being an MDPS (addn'l 4/28):
Bulwark
Shield Swipe
Shield Bash (maybe) + trait

Traits which can obviously be retooled (3/11):
3 Enhanced Stat traits

Total useful/acceptable abilities: 10/17
Total useful/acceptable traits, including obvious repurpose: 6/11

You have half a job here. What's left are basic abilities and traits.

[NefGP]

Why would they be problems? Who's to say RDM couldn't be an off-tank with magic?

This is why I hate the Armory system over XI's job system by the way - every traditional job in FF is going to have to have some stupid base class and then branch off into 2 or more different paths, but all with the same subset of basic skills;

This is why I detest ACN and SMN and how they both feel so completely wrong compared to not just their XI counter parts but throughout the series (well, just 3 in SCH's case but XI's was such a brilliant, masterful rendition of what was originally a deadbeat job that was only valid for literally 1 fight in the whole game). It also precludes BLU for 2 reasons:

Like RDM, it's traditionally a sword user but more more importantly, BLU is supposed to learn all its magic from enemies. Well, that doesn't really mesh at all with the armory system as it currently exists. And unless they introduce a subset of swords (sabers/rapiers) I don't see how RDM could be based on anything but GLD, which is fine for its melee side but awful for the magic side (not to mention I still feel ACN's spells like Bio and Miasma really belong more to RDM and DRK)

[Gamemako]

Why would they be problems? Who's to say RDM couldn't be an off-tank with magic?

I assume you mean hybrid here, since a second tank job would be redundant. Problem is, you've stepped far beyond hybrid utility with the number of slots given to the task. Only 7/17 are innately useful to the DPS job, and that's your primary task. You only have 5 job slots to carve out an entirely different role. Remember that the job must be focused on DPS. There are very, very few situations where an additional tank is useful already, so it's just a utility you give 2-4 slots. Anything more is just a gimped job that is totally unwanted for 99% of content.

A Red Mage in particular means spellcasting is important, and GLA has neither the stats nor the skillset for this. Equipment is STR-focused and weapons have low magic damage, so you'd need an entirely new set of equipment with INT/MIND, and you still can't cross-class damage spells because you're a DoW. You can come up with a few cheap ways of extending your slots (e.g. make Flash into 3 attack spells via 3 elemental stance then add second and third proc abilities to get 9 spells out of it instead of 5), but you have to stretch pretty hard.

This is why I detest ACN and SMN and how they both feel so completely wrong compared to not just their XI counter parts but throughout the series (well, just 3 in SCH's case but XI's was such a brilliant, masterful rendition of what was originally a deadbeat job that was only valid for literally 1 fight in the whole game).

What you want is a job that is focused on its pet. This has nothing to do with the Armory system it at all. SMN is DoT-focused because a pure pet focus is untenable in XIV's design. It's not only boring as hell, it's a balance issue due to the prevalence of movement.

It also precludes BLU for 2 reasons:

It really doesn't preclude a Blue Mage at all. 5 job slots, set 5 abilities learned from enemies, call it a day. It's not even difficult to do. We already slot abilities learned from other jobs, and abilities learned from monsters would technically just require nothing more than the addition of one tab. There are many ways to do Blue Mage already.

Like RDM, it's traditionally a sword user

No, it's not. It's more a gimmick than a job and uses all sorts of weapons.

V: Knives, weak swords, staffs, rods
VI: Rods, maces, daggers (Strago)
VII: Anything (Materia)
VIII: Whip (Quistis)
IX: Fork (Quina)
X: Lance (Khimari)
X-2: Gun (Gun Mage)
XI: Scimitar
TA/2: Saber

Well, that doesn't really mesh at all with the armory system as it currently exists. And unless they introduce a subset of swords (sabers/rapiers) I don't see how RDM could be based on anything but GLD

The weapon class is "One-handed Gladiator's Arm". Given the distinction between CNJ crooks/staves and THM rods/scepters, it's not exactly hard to draw a distinction and create a new weapon set.