The Pigeonhole

[Jonjon]

I think people are missing the point here getting caught up on the cure pld example.

Let me give another example. In v1.0 the abilities you could cross class were so much more varied it's ridiculous. You want to play as a DRK? They don't need to add the job, just play as a MRD and cross class THM spells and LNC abilities. You could actually use Fire, Aero etc. As a melee class.

That's how the armoury system was advertised. You levelled up classes to unlock abilities you can then use on other classes.

Now it's just pointless. We have effectively zero class customisation. Not even a trait tree or anything which is usually the bare minimum in an MMORPG. And it's a shame.

This exactly.
I remember in 1.0 tanking on my THM, this was back before they destroyed the class to add BLM. Threw on some plate, 1h shield, provoke, rampart, threaten(I think it was called this), etc. It worked pretty well. Now, the armory system is butchered butchered and THM is a travesty compared to what it was, but that is another topic. Anyone interested go look up the original 1.0 THM skills.

[Ri_ri]

The whole armoury system seems like a leftover from 1.0, just like crafting.
It became clear that they have no intention of making it better since they made Thunder exclusive to thaumaturge.

[Neralyte]

I think using the heal for PLDs as an example was the wrong choice, people seem to have misunderstood and think I want it to be this amazing ability that lets you solo tank without the need for healers. What I meant by using it as an example, is that in its current state not a single PLD uses cure, though the majority will have picked it as a cross class ability because the rest of the abilities you can choose from are just as useless.

This is not just limited to PLD either, all classes have 5 cross class abilities they can choose from, however, there is usually only 1 or 2 abilities that are useful but they don't do anything aside from slightly buff your core role. Remove any, or even all cross class abilities and you still won't see any real difference in how people play or how effective their core role is. Pigeonholing is the term used when things are classified into single categories despite the fact that they could fit into multiple categories, and that is what jobs essentially do, they place your class into a category with a defined purpose, negating the fact that we have access to cross class skills. To help make matters worse, instead of embracing this ability to diversify (which was clearly the point), the skills we get access to are so watered down and/or unusable that we are further forced into this pigeonhole.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, hybrid classes like DRK can't possibly function with this current setup and the only way they will become a viable class is if SE stops pigeonholing and embraces the diversity that was claimed as a major attribute for FFXIV.

[Parodine]

Agreed. From your post I see you haven't touched SMN yet, but the cross-class abilities are really pathetic for it too. The job itself is still very versatile, but outside of Raging Strikes and Swiftcast, they're mostly unusable. It's sad that out of 2/5 choices of cross-class abilities are all we really get to work with...which of course, every SMN [should] be using. It's not much of a customization as it is a branching attempt to fool us into freedom of choice...which mostly failed.

[Chiramu]

FFXIV is still a baby. The development team has to work to expand the game, at the moment the game is still stretching it's legs, it's not old enough to think of great things. It's still learning to crawl.

[Fayto]

All these complaints make me miss the FFXI job system and how much variety it offered.

Now that is the true definition of pigeonholed.

[Cherie]

Lies, Turn 2 has 2 ways to win, Rot or Enrage method.

They really should do something about that "enrage method." Enrage is supposed to be the end of a fight, not like heal spam -- tank and spank mode.
Someone coded that badly and now SE doesn't want to change it cause people like it like that apparently.

Party finder is full of people just wanting to do turn 2 enrage method... I mean like, how did they all get past turn 1 and not have cleared turn 2, not only that, but they also now want to do that way... :/

I wouldn't care but, Coil is such a short raid already as it is.

[Neralyte]

FFXIV is still a baby. The development team has to work to expand the game, at the moment the game is still stretching it's legs, it's not old enough to think of great things. It's still learning to crawl.

We all understand that in the early days there is going to be a lot of features that don't feel fleshed out or need iteration and consolidating. This is all a learning curve and in time things will change, improve and feel more fleshed out.

Unfortunately though, that doesn't change the fact that current implementation is lacking. This is not the only thing that has been pointed out that lacks focus and vision, the 2 systems are at odds with each other and don't meld to provide any clear indication of what SE is trying to achieve.

The job system pushes us in one direction while the cross class system tries to pull us in another, most classes find little to no benefit from the abilities which give no gain in diversity for the class, nor do they provide more focus into your current role. On top of that, the balance across classes is terrible where a PLD has almost no gain in using cross class skills and a WAR gets a whole raft of usable abilities that actually do boost your role.

[Wobi]

The real issue is the community, not the developers. This happens with nearly every game without static skill sets, eventually the math wizards of the community work out the "best" variation and anyone who does not choose this is considered sub-par. They could tack on varying skills trees and hundreds of abilities, however each of these will need to be balanced so as not to provide a significant advantage to any class. So while there may not be the old "illusion of choice" you will have the right to make the "wrong" one, at which point players would be begging SE for skill tree reset items.

The people demanding more customization are somewhat of a vocal minority, whereas there are others who do not care one whit about it but if they detect a nerf to their class or feel another one is getting better treatment you will hear about it. For example lets say they created a raid boss that a specifically spec'd tank would perform better than another who was not the playerbase would be calling for a nerf or rebalance of the fight. It's just the nature of the community that no one class should have advantage over another, which is silly but then they would have to design many roughly equivalent raids that certain classes could excel in to create a need for the specialization which leads to more development time and balancing.

As a business it's evident they chose the path of least resistance and the one that will lead to the least amount of crying foul on their forums and I certainly do not blame them for it.

[Fated]

I actually miss pre 1.20 FFXIV sometimes. Sure, it was a hot mess, but I was able to do unusual things like cure bomb on my Lancer or tank on my Thaumaturge. Things don't need to be that extreme, but this game has become so sandboxed that it's sad.