AOE Toggle Needs to GO

[AuctionGirl]

The longer this team is developing on FFXIV, the more I see it being transformed into XI-2.

I loved the AOE Toggle, and thought it was one of the best battle ideas in the game. The removal of this because of complaints from lazy or people whom cant pay attention or create macro's to do this is pure ignorance on the development team.

I do somehow feel this was already being removed before this OP's post and that the whole plan was to convert to a more FFXI battle style. The reasoning behind this might be because its easier to adjust difficulty of a mob with all these battle adjustments. I do have a feeling that battle after they are done with these patches will not be the same, or close to it.

Again, I will preach that the real need is to remove leve's or make them a solo only thing to do that doesn't give you 200k+ SP every other day. These should be supplemental, and not primary ways of Ranking up.

I really wish you would reconsider the AOE Toggle feature and leave it in the game. I would also love an idea of what the battle system is going to change to...

Will we still get Cure/Sacrifice on other classes than mage?
Will Actions be interchangeable between classes?
Are we doing away with the Action bar? Or are we making the action bar larger with lower Action costs per spell/ability?
Are we going to see EXP Chains and Skill Chains?
Are you going to speed up the mob spawn rate so we can actually grind in parties?
Are you going to increase the difficulty of this game so most of us can have a challenge?

Plenty more questions, and Bayonne, if you can, please get answers for these... Thank you...

[Zezil]

just push emotion buttom when choose target before cast.This game system not support swap equip when fight like ffxi so it mean less to make alot combo of macro so just check on or off... that easy to control and... mage can't combo buff ability in pt by hate control -3-"

[Physic]

the biggest issue i notice, is this was the unique play mechanic of conjurer and thaumaturge. It looks like they are scrapping class having different play mechanics rather than building on it. This was something that made mage classes more unique instead of less. What are they going to add to replace the loss of a major job mechanic? what is going to be different about the basic styles of play of a thaum and a con? i hope they start adding like basic skills that alter basic playstyles, so being a mage is not as simple as just having different spells, and identical in every other way, which it looks like they are doing.

[tachikoma]

people who dont' want AoE toggle are not saying they are too lazy to push the damn button, the button should have nothing to do with this change. The problem is that its harder to balance all aspects of a spell with the toggle:

how much MP should a spell cost? does the MP change based on whats toggled? how does the system show you before you choose the desired spell if u can cast it? How much emnity does it generate /w or w/o aoe toggle?

ex. you have 30mp, you need 24 to cast Sacrafice III. But wait you wanna click AoE toggle now it costs 124MP and the spell fails? this is the kind of clunky play that the button creates. The way around this was making aoe/single target the same MP which SUCKS this creates a zombie of THM's main healing afk style by spamming Sac-II all day long.

[darkstarpoet1]

people who dont' want AoE toggle are not saying they are too lazy to push the damn button, the button should have nothing to do with this change. The problem is that its harder to balance all aspects of a spell with the toggle:

how much MP should a spell cost? does the MP change based on whats toggled? how does the system show you before you choose the desired spell if u can cast it? How much emnity does it generate /w or w/o aoe toggle?

ex. you have 30mp, you need 24 to cast Sacrafice III. But wait you wanna click AoE toggle now it costs 124MP and the spell fails? this is the kind of clunky play that the button creates. The way around this was making aoe/single target the same MP which SUCKS this creates a zombie of THM's main healing afk style by spamming Sac-II all day long.

actually this is about people that are not smart enough to click the button. it has little to do with being lazy and much more to do with being fail at that job. the biggest complaint throughout this thread was people accidentally forgetting they have aoe on and attacking other mobs. that is fail on the user not fail on the game.

your example is fail in the aspect they already have the spell cost seperated and works just fine when using spiritbind to half the mp cost and it works fluidly. it would be a simple fix to have the single spell cost the same as what a spell does while under spirtibind and the aoe versions be the normal cost. then casting aoe spells costs twice what the normal single cast spell does. all you guys want is a change for the sake of change and could care less how it affects the rest of the game.

almost certain that they are not going to allow cross class jobs to use aga version of mage specific spells I would not worry about that part. They will make them job specific. I think removing aoe toggle also allows them to further define what a CON vs THM is rather then the only current distinction being CON gets a crappy AOE circle where THM gets a monster cone.

ie, a CON can now get CURAGA III where a THM might only get Curaga-I. Allowing CON to be further developed into a main healer and THM being a more effective enfeebler type mage.

thm is vastly superior to con in its healing abilities. it is much more useful in a party as a healer.

[tachikoma]

the biggest issue i notice, is this was the unique play mechanic of conjurer and thaumaturge.

almost certain that they are not going to allow cross class jobs to use aga version of mage specific spells I would not worry about that part. They will make them job specific. I think removing aoe toggle also allows them to further define what a CON vs THM is rather then the only current distinction being CON gets a crappy AOE circle where THM gets a monster cone.

ie, a CON can now get CURAGA III where a THM might only get Curaga-I. Allowing CON to be further developed into a main healer and THM being a more effective enfeebler type mage.

[ZhangoSqu]

You have some good points Tachikoma, but nothing you've brought up here couldn't have been addressed while maintaining the AoE toggle button functionality. It would require modifications to the UI, but still, removing the AoE toggle requires some UI modification any way. I just don't think that the arguments for removing AoE toggle are very good.

If you're worried about different MP costs, the toggle for AoE could be changed from a button to a "spell selection" which functions the exact same way, but instead of a green button you see something a bit more descriptive, e.g. [AoE Off] "Fire, MP: 10, Enmity: X, Recast: Y, ..." and then [AoE ON] "Firaga, MP: 15, Enmity: X+N, Recast: Y+N"

There is virtually no difference between this and the argument for separating spells into distinct equipable actions except in the fact that it creates less clutter on the action bar and you can be more versatile with the types of actions you equip. Further, SE could restrict the ability to toggle spells to AoE further, right now its just carte blanche "No AoE" for disciples of war, but there could be more advanced criteria that also apply to other disciples of magic, for example your suggestion that a THM might only be able to do single and AoE Cure I/Curaga I but not higher level Conjuer cure spells.

[Kiara]

Hi Zhango, Reika,

I made this post buried somewhere in the page 30s section, but this is one thing that I can see the developers going for that isn't about pushing an extra button or not:

Hi All (and Thanks Bayohne for the clarification!) ,

There are definitely pros and cons to both systems, but one thing that this could do is allow Spells to have more unique characteristics.

I know the argument right now for many is "Well Cure II (w/ AOE Toggle) = Curaga, it just takes an extra slot now." That may be true but other types of attacks / skills are separated this way currently in various games.

For example, in most FPS games, there's a:

* Hand Pistol - Single Target
* Shotgun - Spread Shot, Short Distance, Massive Damage
* Rocket Launcher - Huge AOE, Big Damage

Would it be nice to have a Hand Pistol with an AOE Toggle, to hit 1 Enemy, or All Enemies in an AOE Cone? Sure. Would it be nice to have a Rocket Launcher that was Single Target and did massive damage to a Single Target with No Splash Damage? Or Toggle it to be AOE? Sure.

But that's what makes the Hand Pistol, or the Shotgun, or the Rocket Launcher what it is.

Same for Gladiator Weaponskills like Red Lotus (Single Target) vs. Circle Slash (AOE) vs. Luminous Spire (Hits 1 Target, AOE Blind). Red Lotus and Circle Slash are the exact same animation. Would it be nice to AOE Toggle Red Lotus or any Weaponskill whenever you want to? Sure. But we accept that "Red Lotus is a Single Target Horizontal Slashing Weaponskill" and "Circle Slash is an AOE Horizonal Slashing Weaponskill."

I think having these differences (without AOE Toggle) is what might make the Mages feel more unique, with different spells. Let's say, Cure I, II, will be Single Target, but, say a new Spell, "White Wind" is a curative spell that heals everyone in an area for an amount inbetween Cure I and II (so a 1.5 level of strength). That's the inherent quality and uniqueness of "White Wind" then.

Now, we can only hope that the Battle Team has more interesting effects / augmentations than just making 1 spell Single Target, and 1 spell AOE. But like the examples above, I can see why they want to do away with the toggle. I'm fine with either system, but let's see what the changes are to all the Mage Spells before we go crucifying the team.

[ZhangoSqu]

I made this post buried somewhere in the page 30s section, but this is one thing that I can see the developers going for that isn't about pushing an extra button or not [...]

I actually did read your post earlier Kiara It was well thought out. I do agree with the points that you made, but would like to point out that your analogy of firearms may not necessarily be appropriate. It depends on a few things--but and most importantly--if magic in Hydaelyn (and Eorzea specifically) is versatile (which it seems to be) the restriction of magic to single or multiple targets is not a result of how a spell functions but rather how it is used. Unlike with firearms whose area of effect (be it single or multiple) is a product of how they function.

Of course my argument for this is no less infallible. The point still being that a firearm analogy is good, but is only anecdotal at best.

I do agree that there are benefits that can be seen by the actions that they are taking--specifically mentioned by you and others, that this may allow the developers to create more unique play experiences based on the sort of spells and actions that are offered to the spell casting classes. But I still think that this could have been done without a removal of AoE toggle--and just a rework of the existing mechanic.

Now, I hope you're right that the battle team has some better ideas than just making some spells AoE and others not. I think that it is important for people to express their opinions on this, as we are, but since it looks like this is happening regardless, we'll have to wait and see what the new battle system is like before judging it. I know that I'm reserving final judgment until after the changes are made, and others should as well, but discourse is still important.

... All that being said--I'm still left feeling uneasy about this change without any further details that would better explain their plans.

[Kiara]

I actually did read your post earlier Kiara It was well thought out. I do agree with the points that you made, but would like to point out that your analogy of firearms may not necessarily be appropriate. It depends on a few things--but and most importantly--if magic in Hydaelyn (and Eorzea specifically) is versatile (which it seems to be) the restriction of magic to single or multiple targets is not a result of how a spell functions but rather how it is used. Unlike with firearms whose area of effect (be it single or multiple) is a product of how they function.

Of course my argument for this is no less infallible. The point still being that a firearm analogy is good, but is only anecdotal at best.

I do agree that there are benefits that can be seen by the actions that they are taking--specifically mentioned by you and others, that this may allow the developers to create more unique play experiences based on the sort of spells and actions that are offered to the spell casting classes. But I still think that this could have been done without a removal of AoE toggle--and just a rework of the existing mechanic.

Now, I hope you're right that the battle team has some better ideas than just making some spells AoE and others not. I think that it is important for people to express their opinions on this, as we are, but since it looks like this is happening regardless, we'll have to wait and see what the new battle system is like before judging it. I know that I'm reserving final judgment until after the changes are made, and others should as well, but discourse is still important.

... That and I'm still left feeling uneasy about this change without any further details that would better explain their plans.

Hi Zhango,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Oh definitely, it's one of those things that works, if it makes sense in the "lore" of the world of the particular game. If one can control the magical flow in Eorzea, then wouldn't allowing Red Lotus be toggleable be the same as well? I think it gives a nice freedom to every DoW class, but at the same time, we've gotten used to "Red Lotus" being a single target, and "Circle Slash" being an AOE. I'm fine with either system, but I can see why they may want to try it this way.

And a great point Zhango: Ultimately it would've been great for them to fully explain themselves about this. I feel that sometimes when we get a tiny bit of new information (via the forums), SE may sometimes be doing more harm than good. In this case, it might've been better to not say anything and unveil their full plans for Disciples of Magic (All Spell Changes, All Skill Changes, Job Specialization, the Focus of the Class), instead of just leaking this one bit of information.

Ultimately, we'll see where this goes (hopefully soon).