AOE Toggle Needs to GO

[Viridiana]

As a tank, I'd like to point out that the extra button press for target confirmation is a good thing. I don't want to have to untarget my current enemy just to be able to taunt off of the healer when they decide to aggro something they shouldn't have. Also, I'd like everyone to note that it's the same number of button presses for me to use abilities like taunt as it is for everyone else to cure. That's not the fault of the aoe toggle, because taunt doesn't even have an aoe option.

[Reaux]

As a tank, I'd like to point out that the extra button press for target confirmation is a good thing. I don't want to have to untarget my current enemy just to be able to taunt off of the healer when they decide to aggro something they shouldn't have. Also, I'd like everyone to note that it's the same number of button presses for me to use abilities like taunt as it is for everyone else to cure. That's not the fault of the aoe toggle, because taunt doesn't even have an aoe option.

How is your healer agroing things if they are healing? :3

[Shai]

This is ridiculous. You guys can't even keep your own arguments straight.

5. With the elimination of the toggle, more "Final Fantasy"-esque spells can return. IE: Cura/Curaga/Fira/Firaga

A few examples of "Final Fantasy" (esque?) games that have Toggled AOE:

Final Fantasy 4, Final Fantasy 5, Final Fantasy 6, Final Fantasy 9...

Are we seriously justifying this because it's been done in standalone RPGs?

Are you kidding me? YOU TWO ARE THE ONES WHO TRIED TO JUSTIFY THIS.
...or did you simply mean it was done in XI and therefore XI is the end-all-be-all to what makes FF feel like FF? Get your own fng arguments in order. How are you two not embarrassed enough to quit this thread?

There are valid points to each side of keeping and altering the toggle and I think ultimately the dev team needs to address the issue with the battle update or shortly after upon determining how the battle system/fixes work.

AOE Toggle needs to be removed. Terrible terrible terrible concept.

Notice the difference between these two statements? One is a reasonable request (after being tempered against my arguments) and the other is your original assertion which demands action with little to support 1) how toggle makes the game terrible or 2) how removing it would make the game better. I think we can ALL agree it needs improvement and the devs will be the judge of how.

Do you have a right to voice your opinion that it's terrible? Sure, go ahead, but to demand immediate removal is childish and clearly not the best option and you have failed to give me (or SE) any reasons why you're right and I'm wrong. It's not a popularity contest. The amount of "Likes" don't mean anything.

SE needs to make individual AOE spells or somehow remake the AOE mechanics. The toggle is too much of a hassle to deal with, especially when aggro'd groups don't even yield SP until they turn red.

How many times must I say - they are changing enmity and they are changing the claim conditions. Do you need or want links to these statements? I can provide them but I've chosen not to because I thought this was common knowledge. How often does it need to be expressed to be clear? The problems you have with "Toggle" are being fixed. You are making up shit like it causes confusion and delay (Sir Topham Hat quote) when I'm telling you it doesn't cause ME any confusion or delay. So it's just two sides of a coin. Am I a better healer than you? Who knows, but the system doesn't hinder me.

Rowyne states her #1 concern is the "AOE confirmation" (which doesn't exist). I agree that having the toggle on screen at all times would be better because I often don't know if I'm in or out of AOE until I'm selecting a spell (and that's obnoxious) but what you want ... well it wouldn't work for my playstyle. I'd have to adapt, much like you have to adapt.

You see, I like to keep my target cursor on the mob so I can make sure to keep DOT up. I like to see what buffs and debuffs he has on him and I like to keep track of how much HP he has so I can manage MP to the best of my ability. I have the mob targeted at all times (even when 100% healing as I did in XI) and then use the sub-target system (stpc in XI) to target the tank or the DD group as needed.

It's just a matter of personal preference. I'm not using that as a reason to keep it. I'm simply stating that you can stomp your foot and say you like Target, Cure - but can say I like pushing Cure, Target, Enter. It's an extra button push, but I prefer it so I can watch the mob and make sure I am targeting the correct ally with Cure.

Personal preference excluded, there's no reason to throw away the system in place.

The counter argument to the evaluation of revamping or even looking at the AOE toggle is that "I like the AOE Toggle and your argument is flawed because I like it!" Is mainly what I hear.

Then you aren't listening.
I'll say it again: Personal preference excluded, there's no reason to throw away the system in place.

I'm saying you & your supporter (Rowyne) site personal preferences as if they're valid arguments. I'm simply stating I have a personal preference too (to negate yours)! and thus it's a throw away argument (on both sides). That's all I'm saying and I have supporters in this thread too.

You have suggested we throw away something that works, and works well, without giving any reason aside from personal preference and user error to create an entirely new system from scratch. You want to change your song and dance to fixing it so it works better? Please, change your Topic & edit your first post. I implore you. Fixing systems in the game to work more smoothly is ALWAYS better than wasting development time producing a new (old) system (that you're more comfortable using).

I'm just here to balance out your ridiculous demands with sound reason.
Toggle works as its currently implemented. Leave it alone.

[Tibian]

This is ridiculous. You guys can't even keep your own arguments straight.

I think you're getting them confused. Single player games should never be compared to MMO's.

Do you have a right to voice your opinion that it's terrible? Sure, go ahead, but to demand immediate removal is childish and clearly not the best option and you have failed to give me (or SE) any reasons why you're right and I'm wrong. It's not a popularity contest. The amount of "Likes" don't mean anything.

The amount of likes means other people agree with my opinion(s). So therefore, the entire concept of examining the AOE toggle isn't as far-fetched as you want to believe.

Then you aren't listening.
I'll say it again: Personal preference excluded, there's no reason to throw away the system in place.

I've given you reasons which I feel are incredibly legitimate. You just seem to throw them away and call them insignificant whereas I have acknowledged the fact that the AOE toggle can remain in some capacity with a bit of work. I've also explained why the removal of the system could add further depth to the game, which you also seem to ignore or cannot seem to grasp the concept.

I'm just here to balance out your ridiculous demands with sound reason.
Toggle works as its currently implemented. Leave it alone.

You're here mainly argue, not even discuss the concept of removing or altering it because you prefer it.

If anything you're the one blinded by personal preferences.

[Shai]

I think you're getting them confused. Single player games should never be compared to MMO's.

Then why did you do it? You told us that Firaga makes the game feel more like FF. Last I checked there's 2 MMO with "Final Fantasy" and countless dozens of "Final Fantasy" games that are standalone. You made this argument, not us. You should have said "It would make this game feel more like FFXI" but that would sound ridiculous, wouldn't it? You know where that argument gets you on this forum.

The amount of likes means other people agree with my opinion(s). So therefore, the entire concept of examining the AOE toggle isn't as far-fetched as you want to believe.

If it is so widespread (all 30 people) they should have come up with some solid answers as to why it would make the game better to remove the system other than "it would feel more like XI" and "I like Firaga." The option to AOE exists in XI and in XIV and the enmity and claim values are being adjusted (hopefully for the better) so devs are already working on that aspect of the argument. You're 30 like fan club don't help your case. They just appear as useless as your argument.

I've given you reasons which I feel are incredibly legitimate. You just seem to throw them away and call them insignificant whereas I have acknowledged the fact that the AOE toggle can remain in some capacity with a bit of work. I've also explained why the removal of the system could add further depth to the game, which you also seem to ignore or cannot seem to grasp the concept.

You've told me the system causes you confusion & delay. I've told you that after 9 months, it causes me no confusion and no delay. I have never lagged out or let anyone die because I was too busy toggling Cure. I have had people die because the target system itself is an abomination and their countless tweaks to it only bandaid a gaping wound - but I don't blame targeting inadequacy (which is both UI & user error) on the AOE toggle.

You have said it can add further depth to the game, but failed to explain how or why you think so. Just saying things doesn't make them obvious or clear to everyone. I can also say the AOE toggle adds depth to the game. (I don't think it does, but I can say that). There's no difference between Fire II (toggled AOE) and Firaga. It's the same spell and the same mechanic. Does it need to cost more MP, cause more enmity, have a bigger animation? Yeah sure, why not. That would actually IMPROVE the game, but the "toggle" itself is just the same as selecting a different spell.

Noticeable differences are that we have 30 Action Bar spaces and limited Slot costs so effectively doubling the # of spells in the game would be a serious disadvantage over the current system. They could work around that, but you're talking about working out entirely new UI systems simply because you don't like pushing 1 extra button. How is that reasonable?

You want to demand the toggle is more intuitive and streamlined? Go for it. Anyone anywhere can argue anything should be more intuitive and streamlined (especially without giving examples) and who could argue? "NO I LIKE IT NOT STREAMLINED." Yeah, no one is going to say that. They may argue your idea/examples of fixing a problem are not in line with their idea and that's their right as is my right to tell you that scrapping Toggle and adding double the spells adds nothing to the game that isn't already there with 1 extra click per spell.

You're here mainly argue, not even discuss the concept of removing or altering it because you prefer it. If anything you're the one blinded by personal preferences.

No, I'm arguing because I'm tired of these ridiculous ideas gaining momentum and devs taking them seriously without fans around to stand up and say "No, this is absurd. 30 likes do not indicate we want this." You're differing the argument on to me because your stance isn't holding any water. I tear into it like a pinata every attempt you've made at justifying why this grand sweeping change is necessary. It's not. All you want from an AOE/No-AOE system exists, all the depth and decision making and tough choices and game winning strategy - it already exists. Just learn to use it and if anything ask for them to make it easier to use.

Stop trying to divert dev attention from real changes that need to be made. We wasted 6 months building auto-attack because of the 111111 argument. We could have had player run companies and delivery boxes by now. I'm tired of this stupid petty shit getting the forefront attention when the game works the way you want it to work already.

No where in that rant does it say "I'm championing this cause because I like Toggle!" so stop pretending it does.

[Cendres]

Stop trying to divert dev attention from real changes that need to be made. We wasted 6 months building auto-attack because of the 111111 argument. We could have had player run companies and delivery boxes by now. I'm tired of this stupid petty shit getting the forefront attention when the game works the way you want it to work already.

Hummm no. If all they wanted to change was auto-attack it would be done and we'd be moving on, however they decided it was a GREAT idea to scrap the current job system and most of it's sub systems by replacing it. That takes AGES, I wonder if all the people that voted "I'd be okay with a combat revamp" really thought how long this would actually take?!

If you are waiting for actual solid content to come in, I'm seriously advising to check back in 2012. And boy do I wish I was kidding..

[Tibian]

Hummm no. If all they wanted to change was auto-attack it would be done and we'd be moving on, however they decided it was a GREAT idea to scrap the current job system and most of it's sub systems by replacing it. That takes AGES, I wonder if all the people that voted "I'd be okay with a combat revamp" really thought how long this would actually take?!

If you are waiting for actual solid content to come in, I'm seriously advising to check back in 2012. And boy do I wish I was kidding..

Agreed.

Combat and gameplay should always come before content. That is why the game is free. Its hard to take Shai's discussion seriously now after reading that he or she would rather have a delivery box in place before the game even functions properly.

[Rowyne]

This is ridiculous. You guys can't even keep your own arguments straight.

I think you're confused. What I was saying was that standalone RPGs cannot be compared to MMOs. Mechanics such as turn-based combat, toggles and extra confirmations do not work well in unpredictable real-time settings where time is of the essence.

Rowyne states her #1 concern is the "AOE confirmation" (which doesn't exist).

Perhaps I didn't make this clear. The AoE toggle is part of the final spell confirmation. If it makes you feel better, we can technically say it's two issues which are bundled together. It is a redundancy that feels spammy.

It's akin to how Windows Vista used to always throw a popup in your face. 'Do you really want do to this?' Seriously? Of course I want to do this. If I press the button on my action bar to cure, then yes, I want to cure. Cast the spell, quit throwing extra roadblocks in my way.

To get through this confirmation as quickly as possible, people either just AoE everything, or inadvertently do the opposite of what they wanted to do because of how they bundled the toggle into the confirmation.

I agree that having the toggle on screen at all times would be better because I often don't know if I'm in or out of AOE until I'm selecting a spell (and that's obnoxious)

I did concede that if SE likes the toggle instead of splitting it out into separate spells, then it needs to be something more static and moved out of a confirmation mechanic.

You see, I like to keep my target cursor on the mob so I can make sure to keep DOT up. I like to see what buffs and debuffs he has on him and I like to keep track of how much HP he has so I can manage MP to the best of my ability. I have the mob targeted at all times (even when 100% healing as I did in XI) and then use the sub-target system (stpc in XI) to target the tank or the DD group as needed.

I understand what you're talking about. But I think they could implement better mechanics that will allow this, such as a focus frame or target-of-target, and it wouldn't necessitate the current always-hit-enter spell confirmation.

I'm simply stating that you can stomp your foot and say you like Target, Cure - but can say I like pushing Cure, Target, Enter. It's an extra button push, but I prefer it so I can watch the mob and make sure I am targeting the correct ally with Cure.

I'm not stomping my feet. I'm not getting irate. I've tried to keep this thread civil. But I'm glad you finally understand it's extra button pushing.

[CrstyCaptin]

I did concede that if SE likes the toggle instead of splitting it out into separate spells, then it needs to be something more static and moved out of a confirmation mechanic.

This I like. Have it toggle-able from outside of combat/spells, and remove the toggle before casting spells.

[Shai]

ad nauseum wins the day.

I can only repeat myself so often before I want to crush my skull in a vice.

LETS THROW AWAY TOGGLE! YEAH!

MORE REDUNDANT SPELLS TO SORT THROUGH PLEASE.

/thread