The new system and the old system. Constrained.

[DoctorMog]

Basic attack accounts for a very large portion of damage.

Losing any potential attacks is only part of it, The TP from those 4 attacks is now gone as well.

Which is a potential weaponskill.



Stopping for a moment in the current system is no loss in DPS over time because stamina "holds" your attacks for use when you want them.

The new system is an "on off" switch. If you don't USE them, they are gone. (standard attacks)

Making the new system even worse for communication.

A typing player that isn't faces directly at a monster that misses a swing is an unknown lost amount of potential damage from the attack and the TP gain.

Current system = higher damage because of stamina.

[AlexiaKidd]

Basic attack accounts for a very large portion of damage.

But they entire battle system is being overhauled so what applies now won't matter. They said in the battle reform blueprint that they wanted to make sure battles were challenging and you could not win with just auto attack.

Edit to add:

Can you even give me one instance in the game where you actually need to stop attacking the mob for a brief period of time and then during that time you can build you can build your stamina back up?

[Physic]

But they entire battle system is being overhauled so what applies now won't matter. They said in the battle reform blueprint that they wanted to make sure battles were challenging and you could not win with just auto attack.

Edit to add:

Can you even give me one instance in the game where you actually need to stop attacking the mob for a brief period of time and then during that time you can build you can build your stamina back up?

killing wolves its best to wait for full stamina and burst them down so they cant steal hp, anytime you run from an enemy's ws you lower your dps in an AA/stamina less system, but in a stamina system your stamina is recovering and you can go back and burst again. If you put a monster to sleep you can wait for stamina and burst it. When you do a battle regimen you are best off using an amount of stamina proportional to how long you think people will take to put their skills up before you go.

Most people didnt learn stamina because parties are easy mode within 10 levels, if you fight low man, or did big groups before and actually needed to adapt to your enemies, stamina was a very useful tool so you didnt lose dps for not doing something in one small instance. people never learned to use it, or learned the tricks of various monsters because the new sp system makes hard fights unworth it.

Stamina was very hard on tanks, but they could have altered that.

stamina was used to balance the cost of skills making them worthwhile, a big reason on evade/dodge/parry skills were worthwhile was because they cost little stamina. Its not the only way, but it had advantages

Be sure they will use cooldowns to manage skills, they have already said they will. the questions are how much, and what other resources they will use to balance the skills. If they thought something needed half your stamina bar, they will make a system that mimics that cost in some way shape or form.

[viion]

killing wolves its best to wait for full stamina and burst them down so they cant steal hp, anytime you run from an enemy's ws you lower your dps in an AA/stamina less system, but in a stamina system your stamina is recovering and you can go back and burst again.

So now you just hit them a bunch get 3000 tp and burst out 3 weapon skills, doing the exact same thing as before but without the waiting. Wow. limitations!?!?!?

[Shai]

So now you just hit them a bunch get 3000 tp and burst out 3 weapon skills, doing the exact same thing as before but without the waiting. Wow. limitations!?!?!?

Did you even bother to read what he wrote? It's not the same.

Auto-Attack won't be function if you run out of range of a Mob WS. You lose out on TP & Damage.

Previously (currently) you refill stamina while you're doing this so it has an advantage when you turn around and move back in range.

You're a smart person most of the time, Viion. You can see there's a difference. Stop rushing this thread so aggressively. There's pros and cons to both situations and some people prefer one to the other (gasp). It's no big deal. It's not like we (the current & old system supporters) are going to get what we want anyway. We're just exchanging ideas.

[viion]

Did you even bother to read what he wrote? It's not the same.

Auto-Attack won't be function if you run out of range of a Mob WS. You lose out on TP & Damage.

Previously (currently) you refill stamina while you're doing this so it has an advantage when you turn around and move back in range.

You're a smart person most of the time, Viion. You can see there's a difference. Stop rushing this thread so aggressively. There's pros and cons to both situations and some people prefer one to the other (gasp). It's no big deal. It's not like we (the current & old system supporters) are going to get what we want anyway. We're just exchanging ideas.

So long as your in battle you dont lose TP and if you watched the video you will see that the pug runs through the goblin to do additional attacks from the rear, oh yeh and not losing all his TP (or any if I remember).

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

Not to mention if your so obsessed to run out of range to get the guage up, you cant hit it no matter how much you spam 1....................

Infact removing guage means you dont need to run out like a moron to store it up, you can just go straight into w/e you had planned =)

[Physic]

So long as your in battle you dont lose TP and if you watched the video you will see that the pug runs through the goblin to do additional attacks from the rear, oh yeh and not losing all his TP (or any if I remember).

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

Not to mention if your so obsessed to run out of range to get the guage up, you cant hit it no matter how much you spam 1....................

Infact removing guage means you dont need to run out like a moron to store it up, you can just go straight into w/e you had planned =)

in a cool down tp system, any time you are not gaining tp, or using your cool down skills when available you are lowering your dps.

Where before it was always worthwhile to dodge a bad WS, now its a question of is it worth it to lose AA damage and the tp generated from being close, and as well the fact that you may not use the Cooldown skill as soon as its available.

There are advantages that a stamina system has to fighting depth, but its just not what some people want, whatever, but its not the same system.

[Shai]

So long as your in battle you dont lose TP and if you watched the video you will see that the pug runs through the goblin to do additional attacks from the rear, oh yeh and not losing all his TP (or any if I remember).

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

Not to mention if your so obsessed to run out of range to get the guage up, you cant hit it no matter how much you spam 1....................

Infact removing guage means you dont need to run out like a moron to store it up, you can just go straight into w/e you had planned =)

Um. You're not running around like a headless chicken.
You're making a calculated effort to avoid conal or circular AOE.
It's incidentally quite easy in this game. I liked that, wanted it expanded on even.

Purposely moving about and not attacking allows stamina to recharge. It was a direct answer to the question "When would you purposely be doing nothing to allow stamina to recharge?" or something to that effect. Sleep & Bind also come to mind.

[Rentahamster]

Basic attack accounts for a very large portion of damage.

Not for my Thaumaturge.

killing wolves its best to wait for full stamina and burst them down so they cant steal hp

Err, not really, even if you're waiting to charge stamina, they are still building TP by hitting you. Best way to kill wolves is to Twisting Vice their ass.

Why would you run out of range, you dont even need to do that to refil the bar you just... do nothing.............

Confused the fuck out here why you got to be running around like a headless chicken.

This goes back to what Physic was saying:

anytime you run from an enemy's ws you lower your dps in an AA/stamina less system, but in a stamina system your stamina is recovering and you can go back and burst again.

With auto attack, when you run away to avoid a TP move, you miss out on an opportunity to attack. In the stamina system, in the time you spent evading, you are regaining stamina. Then, one you are in range again, you can use that built up stamina to do two normal attacks in quick succession. When evading a mob's TP attack under AA, you may have only gotten in one hit in a 3 second time span, whereas with the current system you would have been able to get in 2 or 3 hits instead.

You call them zergs,

we call them calculated attacks.

From a strategic standpoint, there really isn't any compelling reason why saving up stamina for burst attacks is worthwhile. It averages out to the same in the end. In the current battle system, the management of your normal attacks is only useful to archers because of multishot. It's pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the classes since doing this: "1..1......1...1................1111" is functionally the same as doing this: "1...1...1...1...1...1"

Personally, I would have liked to have a more action-RPG, Monster Hunter style of gameplay, but in keeping the battle system the way it is, the reasoning behind auto attack is better than what we have now since AA eliminates redundant keystrokes.

[Physic]

Not for my Thaumaturge.



Err, not really, even if you're waiting to charge stamina, they are still building TP by hitting you. Best way to kill wolves is to Twisting Vice their ass.


This goes back to what Physic was saying:


With auto attack, when you run away to avoid a TP move, you miss out on an opportunity to attack. In the stamina system, in the time you spent evading, you are regaining stamina. Then, one you are in range again, you can use that built up stamina to do two normal attacks in quick succession. When evading a mob's TP attack under AA, you may have only gotten in one hit in a 3 second time span, whereas with the current system you would have been able to get in 2 or 3 hits instead.


From a strategic standpoint, there really isn't any compelling reason why saving up stamina for burst attacks is worthwhile. It averages out to the same in the end. In the current battle system, the management of your normal attacks is only useful to archers because of multishot. It's pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the classes since doing this: "1..1......1...1................1111" is functionally the same as doing this: "1...1...1...1...1...1"

Personally, I would have liked to have a more action-RPG, Monster Hunter style of gameplay, but in keeping the battle system the way it is, the reasoning behind auto attack is better than what we have now since AA eliminates redundant keystrokes.

twisting vice, may be cool, but it also is a high level lancer skill, and in all honesty may become lancer only from the general direction they were talking about, regardless in the new system they will probably have to make sure people have things like twisting vice, or stun available to them, because the system does make tank and spank more effective, and burst tactics, a little different.
stamina is gone though, it had some good points and some bad, hopefully they make some interesting mechanics with the new system. But most of all they need to up difficulty, because although we already had a great deal of tools at our disposal, and viable tactics to handle monsters with different strengths, weakness, and ways to handle their tricks, we almost never had to use them, because we fight easy enemies.
How many people know dodos wont turn around until they want to use a WS, or that dodos have two forms of debuff, both avoidable.
Biasts flip out and change their stats
most monsters ranged attacks are elemental based

they really need to uncap the exp, and make it so tough battles are rewarding. People feel bored and useless when all they have to do is AA, and very little they do actually matters in the fight.
Gla? rarely even gets to hold any hate on anything 10 levels higher.
pug? gets to do about 3-4 hits and WS
con? doesnt even usually get time to cast a offensive magic, just spam cure or throw a couple darts
marauder, master of standstill AoE versus..... 1 monster... ... and has to move all the time...
lancer? buffs the party! but comrade is how useful when the monster dies in 2 seconds.
People will continue to hate battle, and never learn whatever system they come up with, unless they make us actually have to play well to survive.

The good parts of our skills