"New or learning players should just make their own parties in party finder"

[Vinroke]

Pretty common sight whenever I open PF.

So why not join one of those learning parties to help the newbies out?

[DefendPopPunk]

I've seen people join supposed "learning" groups and leave after one or two wipes, which usually ends up destroying the party when everyone exits the duty and leaves the party soon after. It pretty much wastes everyone's time. People always seem to want the win on the first try, every time, but kudos to those of you with the patience to die a few times before conquering a new battle.

[YuriRamona]

The issue is this: deadly or time-consuming mechanics in this game are very rarely intuitive or easy to learn.

People who figure them out on the first try (without seeing other players in the parties do it, or being told how it's done) are the exception, not the rule.

Some mechanics give you big clues on how to solve them. A considerable amount of boss fights will include clickable items that you almost always just click immediately.
For example:

1. Cannons against Isgebind.
2. Bubbles in Satasha.
3. Stinger in Toto-rak.
4. Lanterns in Haukke.
5. Crystals in Dzemael.
6. Golem's heart in Dzemael.

However, the majority of deadly mechanics are nearly impossible to figure out without trial-and-error, guessing, or knowing beforehand.

1. Blasting cap in Copperbell Mines.
2. Wisps in Halatali.
3. Poison pools in Brayflox.
4. Doom effect in Qarn.
5. The sandworm's abilities in Cutter's Cry.
6. Chimera's abilities in Cutter's Cry.
7. Firewater AoE in Dzemael.
8. Isgebind's breath attacks in Stone Vigil.
9. Morbol fruit in Aurum Vale. (when it's best to use them)
10. Eye of the Beholder in Aurum Vale.
11. Livia in CM.
12. Everything the Ultima weapon uses.

And so, what ultimately ends up happening is that the player who is not familiar with the mechanic asks for an explanation, or fails repeatedly to pass the mechanic (and waste everyone's time). Then, it's up to the party to explain how to pass this mechanic. So now, we've spent the same amount of time explaining the mechanic manually as it would have taken for the new player to simply read about it on their own.

Is it so much to ask for new players to familiarize themselves with mechanics that they are very likely to not be able to figure out within a reasonable timeframe? Or do we really expect everyone who queues up in the Duty Finder to be willing to go for the maximum length of time available to clear the dungeon?

Unfortunately, a player only has to learn the fight once, so of course there is going to be fewer newbies.

People always seem to want the win on the first try, every time, but kudos to those of you with the patience to die a few times before conquering a new battle.

Let's be honest here, we're not just talking about a wipe or two to learn some of these mechanics. This is especially true because if you die too early to see it more than once (or totally are oblivious to what is going on), you may not even know what's going on and have to try it multiple times to even see how you are dying.

Even if you know how to handle mechanics such as Isgebind's breath, Doom, and Ram's Voice, it takes precise execution to dodge them. Knowing and understanding what to expect is a very, very large first step that makes passing the mechanic even possible. I'm sure that people who've mastered HM and XM primals and Coil will still need to focus when dodging some mechanics.

[SendohJin]

Is it so much to ask for new players to familiarize themselves with mechanics that they are very likely to not be able to figure out within a reasonable timeframe? Or do we really expect everyone who queues up in the Duty Finder to be willing to go for the maximum length of time available to clear the dungeon?

yup, Duty Finder is random, if you want to take out the Randomness, use Party Finder. otherwise explain it to them in game.

[YuriRamona]

yup, Duty Finder is random, if you want to take out the Randomness, use Party Finder. otherwise explain it to them in game.

Are you serious? Party Finder is not at all the replacement for Duty Finder. Party Finder is wildly inadequate because it draws from a fraction of the available player pool that Duty Finder offers.

Even if players used Party Finder much more seriously and routinely, you might not ever find anyone who wants to run the same dungeon as you regardless of the experience level you desire.

This is partly the fault of the design of the game, but as it stands, it's certainly acceptable for players to expect more from others in Duty Finder.

Please read the rest of my post. It's incredibly unfair to ask the experienced players to have to explain something that the new player can read on their own. You're asking four players to spend the equivalent amount of time that, on the other hand, one player could spend on their own outside of the game, at their own pace, and with visual or video aid. (believe it or not, there are mechanics that are incredibly difficult to explain and understand, especially if players use words with vague meanings such as plumes, bombs, thing, "aoe")

If, on the other hand, you suggest that you can pass mechanics within a reasonable timeframe without knowing how it works beforehand, again, read my post to see why that is unlikely to be probable.

[Orophin]

Party Finder is wildly inadequate because it draws from a fraction of the available player pool that Duty Finder offers.

While that may be, PF is a way better filter than joining the DF. You can set a minimum ilvl in the PF or state your agenda. In the DF, you're gonna get lumped up with the first 7 people available, regardless of their gear or experience with the fight. I think statistically speaking you're going to see better results by setting filters for your group. It may take more time to form, but the odds of success are probably going to be higher.

[SendohJin]

it's certainly acceptable for players to expect more from others in Duty Finder.

(believe it or not, there are mechanics that are incredibly difficult to explain and understand, especially if players use words with vague meanings such as plumes, bombs, thing, "aoe")

you can expect whatever you want, you just won't always get it.

then those players should learn to be more clear what they are saying.

[YuriRamona]

you can expect whatever you want, you just won't always get it.

then those players should learn to be more clear what they are saying.

OK great, maybe I should make a macro that outlines in specific terms what each mechanic is and how to pass it. And then take and field questions and go through a few dry runs to show them how it's done, so they can see, visually and temporally, how and when things appear and occur.

Or, you know, the new player can go spend a minute to read about it or skim through a video for a few minutes.

[Richiealvian]

The issue is this: deadly or time-consuming mechanics in this game are very rarely intuitive or easy to learn.

People who figure them out on the first try (without seeing other players in the parties do it, or being told how it's done) are the exception, not the rule.

Some mechanics give you big clues on how to solve them. A considerable amount of boss fights will include clickable items that you almost always just click immediately.
For example:

1. Cannons against Isgebind.
2. Bubbles in Satasha.
3. Stinger in Toto-rak.
4. Lanterns in Haukke.
5. Crystals in Dzemael.
6. Golem's heart in Dzemael.

However, the majority of deadly mechanics are nearly impossible to figure out without trial-and-error, guessing, or knowing beforehand.

1. Blasting cap in Copperbell Mines.
2. Wisps in Halatali.
3. Poison pools in Brayflox.
4. Doom effect in Qarn.
5. The sandworm's abilities in Cutter's Cry.
6. Chimera's abilities in Cutter's Cry.
7. Firewater AoE in Dzemael.
8. Isgebind's breath attacks in Stone Vigil.
9. Morbol fruit in Aurum Vale. (when it's best to use them)
10. Eye of the Beholder in Aurum Vale.
11. Livia in CM.
12. Everything the Ultima weapon uses.

And so, what ultimately ends up happening is that the player who is not familiar with the mechanic asks for an explanation, or fails repeatedly to pass the mechanic (and waste everyone's time). Then, it's up to the party to explain how to pass this mechanic. So now, we've spent the same amount of time explaining the mechanic manually as it would have taken for the new player to simply read about it on their own.

Is it so much to ask for new players to familiarize themselves with mechanics that they are very likely to not be able to figure out within a reasonable timeframe? Or do we really expect everyone who queues up in the Duty Finder to be willing to go for the maximum length of time available to clear the dungeon?




Let's be honest here, we're not just talking about a wipe or two to learn some of these mechanics. This is especially true because if you die too early to see it more than once (or totally are oblivious to what is going on), you may not even know what's going on and have to try it multiple times to even see how you are dying.

Even if you know how to handle mechanics such as Isgebind's breath, Doom, and Ram's Voice, it takes precise execution to dodge them. Knowing and understanding what to expect is a very, very large first step that makes passing the mechanic even possible. I'm sure that people who've mastered HM and XM primals and Coil will still need to focus when dodging some mechanics.

I'll hand it back to you, is it too much to tell someone how to do it instead of condemning them for not knowing? has it been a must nowadays to know what's coming before you do a dungeon? I'd rather go in blind and enjoy the surprise, if I keep dying I'll just ask why I died.

[NyneAlexander]

I joined a titan learning party last night because I really wanted to try for weekly and every "ZOMG XP ONLY NO N00BS" party was full on dps and heals.

It took us a whopping 4 tries, but we beat titan before my food wore off.

Just cause its a learning party doesn't mean that people are bad players or can't learn quickly.