Opinion on tanking design

[Kitru]

That said, I never pushed for WAR getting an invincibility via Holmgang.

Describing Holmgang as an "invincibility" doesn't quite grok with me. Yes, it prevents you from dying for the duration, but it's not *true* invincibility, like Hallowed Ground, which is what it always gets compared to. The survivability value of Holmgang, even if the bind were removed, is *very* different from what Holmgang provides.

I do understand that it's necessary to group abilities of that level together; I just don't like the category being referred to as "invincibility CDs". A better term, as I see it, would be "uber-CD" or "super CD", since that's really what they are. I've sometimes heard of them referred to as "survivability nukes" ("nuke" referring to a single massive attack on a long CD, which we don't really have in ARR).

As a design point, I *do* think that it's appropriate for all tanks to have a *single* ability that exists in that category. It doesn't necessarily have to copy HG or Holmgang, but I think it behooves the devs to make sure that all tanks have some massive last-resort CD. Even if PLD and WAR didn't start with one, I still think it would be apt to include them, just because it's an appropriate functionality for a tank to have. Unlike DPS, tanks and healers are both classes that often have compressed need for functionality. Burst DPS doesn't really matter in the course of PvE content, but burst survivability and burst healing are very important. Healers have abilities like Lustrate and Benediction to fulfill their need to adapt to the situations that require *incredible* compression and Divine Seal, Sacred Soil, Rouse, and Fey Illumination for times when functional compression is needed, but not on the same scale; tanks have their normal CDs for basic compression, but HG and Holmgang are needed for those "shit hits the fan" moments when you need to have absolute survivability for a short window. Building tanks without last resort CDs would be like building healers without Benediction/Lustrate: they *can* get away with it, but it's a niche functionality that deserves at least a single tool to cover.

[Nalou]

Honestly, the tank Limit Break seems to fit this role. The healer Limit Break does as well.
They are made to survive oshit moments, they are our party oshit button (and it makes me sad when a dps pops the LB mid-fight without finishing the boss).

Paladin and White Mage have long "o shit" buttons too. Warrior and Scholar don't, because they aren't as simple as "push the button" (need wrath, combos, aether, multiples actions... nono, that doesn't work).


I think these will be adjusted soon, because they can be used as a strategy to bypass some fight mechanics, while they were probably meant to recover from mistakes done by players.

[Paikis]

As a design point, I *do* think that it's appropriate for all tanks to have a *single* ability that exists in that category. It doesn't necessarily have to copy HG or Holmgang, but I think it behooves the devs to make sure that all tanks have some massive last-resort CD.

Take Holmgang back to just the attract-bind. Add a new ability in:

Unyielding Fury
The Warrior's rage allows him to ignore wounds and fight on past the endurance of normal fighters.
5 minute recast, 10 second duration
Places a buff on the Warrior that prevents death once. In the event of death being prevented, all damage received over the next 5 seconds is instead converted to a heal.

So if you 'die' while this buff is active, it will trigger and all damage done to you instead heals you. If you don't die, it does nothing but burn a timer.

[Kitru]

Unyielding Fury
The Warrior's rage allows him to ignore wounds and fight on past the endurance of normal fighters.
5 minute recast, 10 second duration
Places a buff on the Warrior that prevents death once. In the event of death being prevented, all damage received over the next 5 seconds is instead converted to a heal.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. Dropping to 0 and then getting healed from damage seems more than a little wonky to me. I think it'd be more appropriate for it to bring you back to 75% hp (or 25% with a 50% DR buff for 10 seconds).

The "cannot die" aspect of Holmgang is perfectly fine, in my opinion. It *does* need to be split from Holmgang, though, and have the duration increased so that it's long enough to actually serve as a viable "uber-CD". Other ideas that could replace it are, to me, just brainstorming potential uber-CDs for other tanks.

[Kelberos]

Or drop the immunity and increase healing done by 700% for 10sec. That'll be fun - and more in line with the warrior way of life.

[Nalou]

The "cannot die" aspect of Holmgang is perfectly fine, in my opinion. It *does* need to be split from Holmgang, though, and have the duration increased so that it's long enough to actually serve as a viable "uber-CD". Other ideas that could replace it are, to me, just brainstorming potential uber-CDs for other tanks.

There was a Ninja spell in FFXI doing this: cancels all damage taking you under 0 Hp.
It means you couldn't be one-shot by huge hits and they wouldn't touch your hp at all, but you could still be damaged by smaller hits.
Just giving time for healers to actually heal the player that used his oshit button.

[Kitru]

Honestly, the tank Limit Break seems to fit this role. The healer Limit Break does as well.

Limit breaks are a communal resource and need to be useful in a communal context. The CDs we're referring to strictly benefit the individual using them in that specific situation. HG and the t3 tank LB serve very different purposes, since the tank LBs are largely on par with the normal tank CDs except that they apply to everyone while HG is an explicit "tank take no damage" ability. A situation in which HG would be useful isn't going to be the same one that a tank LB would be useful for because the tank LB is less about making sure that the *tank* survives but more about ensuring that all of the squishies survive a big AoE.

The damage LBs work as they are because they calculate damage based upon the entire group (e.g. a MNK in terribad gear and a DRG in amazing gear are actually doing to do the same damage with their LB if they're in the same group) and damage is always a useful contributor, since, you know, stuff has to die so it's powered communally in order to accomplish a collective goal. Healing and mitigation are specific (you only really need to heal the tank 90% of the time and only the tank needs to have appreciable mitigation because DPS shouldn't be getting hit by stuff that actually requires mitigation to survive) so it's appropriate for tanks and healers to have their own uber-CDs while DPS have to rely upon LBs.

[Zakalwe]

Every tank should have tank basic: taunts, provokes, mitigation, emergency mitigation/cover, threat builders, etc.
[snip]

...except that in this game tanks don't have a genuine forced taunt. Nor, for that matter, do we have threat leech skills. We have aggro builders, we have one threat copy (Provoke), and we have plenty of mitigation skills. I'm not saying we need taunts and leeches, just noting they aren't here.

[Nalou]

Limit breaks are a communal resource and need to be useful in a communal context... Healing and mitigation...

There is no "should be used as" or w/e.
There are situations where you can use LBs as panic buttons, there are situations where you need to manage it as a ressource.
Using LBs as a panic button for one person to prevent a wipe isn't a bad use.

However, HG and LB have no management attached to them, that's why they are potentially game-breakers. You don't build them. You don't anticipate them. You just pop the button when the team made too many mistakes.
They are not part of mitigation or healing, they are part of "oshit I need to do something and I have nothing left".


That's probably why HG only works on "most" attacks but not "all attacks" (and especially not the one that would make a fight waaayyy easier with a pld) and why everyone complaines about Bene's looonngg animation.
They are already nerfed, and I think they will be nerfed even more. Honestly, they seem more like something from v1 they couldn't take away, than like abilities designed to balance this game.

[IndigoHawk]

...except that in this game tanks don't have a genuine forced taunt. Nor, for that matter, do we have threat leech skills. We have aggro builders, we have one threat copy (Provoke), and we have plenty of mitigation skills.

The lack of basic tank abilities is one of the downsides to tanking in this game. For example, taking over an existing mob is a nuisance. A forced taunt would allow tanks to take over for a few seconds, copy threat, build threat, position, and then have no problems once the taunt wears off, regardless of what the party is doing. FFXIV doesn't provide abilities like this, which makes tanking more annoying than in other games. Positioning in FFXIV is more prone to failure, because a dps or healer who doesn't read the tank's mind and unloads at the wrong moment can accidentally ruin the next few seconds of the fight with an out of control mob.

So, all tanks should have basic tank abilities, even if no tank in FFXIV has them.