"In-Progress" queue fishing has to stop

[YuriRamona]

Will the DPS queues get any shorter? I doubt it. I had an FC mate queueing for 70 minutes for CT last night as a Monk.

Go ahead and proclaim freedom of action. Just be sure your "freedom of action" does not have any negative impact on the rest of the community (ie. the 3/7/23 other players queueing for that dungeon too).

So your logic is play a tank or quit complaining. Whatever happened to "freedom of action"?

And a disproportionate part of the population choosing to play DPS doesn't also negatively impact the rest of the community? It takes a tremendous amount of short-sightedness to not realize that the reason that extremely long queues exist for DPS precisely because there are too many DPS trying to queue. There isn't some nebulous problem that exists out there in the aether that commands people to play DPS. It's because they individually chose to play a role that is not in-demand, so obviously they should suffer the consequences of their own actions.

So yes, my logic is precisely, play a tank or quit complaining. You have freedom of action to do as you please in clogging up the queue with people who want to do the exact same thing as you, and are also suffering from long queue times.

The problem of long queues for DPS will never be solved by any machinations or actions by DPS. This problem exists because the community creates it. This problem will continue to exist because players are selfish and want to play their favorite role. Everyone is selfish, so that's not a problem, and I'm not judging them for that.

But going on the forums and complaining about queue times for DPS as if they're some kind of glaring or intractable problem to be addressed by the developers is asinine, and I will judge people for that. The wait times exist because the DPS themselves are part of the problem. It's that simple. "Play a tank or quit complaining". This a problem created by the community and can only be solved by the community.

You're just trying to justify your using fishing for easy rewards.

Thanks for the ad hominem attack on suggesting that I fish for easy rewards. This really contributes to your argument. Go you!

I really don't know how much my definition differs from other people - for all I know I could be the only naive idiot in the world who thinks so, but the in-progress queue is intended for players to fill up missing roles, so that people who are left hanging in dungeons can finish their dungeons without having to start over again. I really doubt the intention of the in-progress queue is for people to snipe bosses, and gain easy rewards.

So we want to prioritize the queue for parties that are in progress, right? They should be on top of the waiting list for new players, because they need them the most. We are in agreement.

And so how exactly, would removing incentives for these players, or as you put it "snipe bosses, and gain easy rewards", going to help us get more players to join the in-progress queue?

What, are we going to rely on the good nature of good samaritans to join the queue just for the hell of it, or for fun? Or, just to help out failing CT parties? I'm sure there are people nice enough to do that, but not nearly in large enough quantities to fill the huge need.

Nothing can really prevent fishing unless they completely remove the option to search for in-progress & mask menu showing how many bosses are up, then we'll pay the price with longer queues and the possibility of parties going without replacements

You need incentives if you want an in-progress queue to even work. Otherwise, in a new system where players are placed blindly into either, they will never opt in for in-progress box. In a more likely scenario, more and more players would opt out of duty finder all together, if it forced players to join in progress (it removed the checkbox) and they'd stick to party finder. Is that really the best solution?

They should just remove the 'In-Progress' tab all together. I rly hate it when I get to the end of the dungeon and someones leaves or D/Cs and the person who replaces them gets xp/loot for like 5min of work. Damn leechers.

Players fish for queues because they WANT easy rewards from in-progress parties. Parties who are in progress WANT those players to skip the parties that are starting fresh (i.e. fishing).

Fishing is not some necessary evil. It is the optimal, best-case-scenario outcome for the in-progress parties and the fishers alike (GIVEN THE LIMITATION OF THE CURRENT SYSTEM).

[juniglee]

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It's really saddening to see that we can't simply be decent human beings, play the game, think about others. No, no reward and everyone else can die in a gutter. Apparently we need incentives to help people.

Duty Roulette was invented as a means for newbie to get help running dungeons, since nobody does those dungeons and they need it for story dungeons. No reward = let the newbies rot in a corner. This is bad enough in Main Scenario, where people go in, heckle others to skip cutscenes, simply because they want their reward.

Yes, throw the newbies under the bus. Throw the unfortunate players who decided that their life calling was to play DPS under the bus.

So apparently, you have the freedom of action to fish for queues, but other people don't have the freedom of action to play a class they want? Contradictory much?

It is the optimal, best-case-scenario for ONE in 4/8/24 other players. Unless you can show it's beneficial to all party members, which it is clearly not, otherwise such threads wouldn't exist - instead, you'd see more threads praising the fishers. Keep in mind that there's a larger number of fresh queues, compared to in-progress.

DPS queues are such because of the bigger number of players playing DPS compared to tank or healer, but ultimately tanks fishing for queues, do not solve this problem, they make it worse. It is bad enough as is, separate queues is a step backwards.

[YuriRamona]

It's really saddening to see that we can't simply be decent human beings, play the game, think about others. No, no reward and everyone else can die in a gutter. Apparently we need incentives to help people.

Duty Roulette was invented as a means for newbie to get help running dungeons, since nobody does those dungeons and they need it for story dungeons. No reward = let the newbies rot in a corner. This is bad enough in Main Scenario, where people go in, heckle others to skip cutscenes, simply because they want their reward.

Your example is perfect. If the player community was really so willing to help other players without being encouraged by an incentive, then we wouldn't have needed the duty roulette in the first place. We'd see experienced players clicking on each of the lower level dungeons manually and jumping in to the queue without the duty roulette bonus.

Obviously, that didn't happen. And it wouldn't happen, because people simply aren't altruistic.

Do I wish that we didn't need incentives for people to be nice to each other? Of course.

Do I think selfishness will disappear if we just sit down and wish it away? Not a chance.

Yes, throw the newbies under the bus. Throw the unfortunate players who decided that their life calling was to play DPS under the bus.

So apparently, you have the freedom of action to fish for queues, but other people don't have the freedom of action to play a class they want? Contradictory much?

I don't think you're understanding my post at all.

There is no such thing as a "life calling" to play DPS. Players weren't born with an orientation towards playing the DPS roles. Players make a conscious decision to play something that they know (or soon realize while leveling up) is an over-popular and undesired role for party content (i.e. a vast majority of this game.

I never said you do not have the "freedom of action" to play DPS. Of course you can.

I only object to the idea that the problems shared by DPS players (long queues and being victims of fishers) is the net result of their own choice to play DPS, and no other reason. The nature of their collective existence is what produces these so-called "problems" they encounter.

Players in these roles do not have the right to have their complaints addressed when the problem is created by them and can only be solved by themselves.

It is the optimal, best-case-scenario for ONE in 4/8/24 other players. Unless you can show it's beneficial to all party members, which it is clearly not, otherwise such threads wouldn't exist - instead, you'd see more threads praising the fishers. Keep in mind that there's a larger number of fresh queues, compared to in-progress.

DPS queues are such because of the bigger number of players playing DPS compared to tank or healer, but ultimately tanks fishing for queues, do not solve this problem, they make it worse. It is bad enough as is, separate queues is a step backwards.

Having players join in-progress parties that are the furthest progressed in a dungeon is the best-case solution. It benefits one player greatly because they can skip the previous content, and the rest of the alliance because they very likely need to fill out their party. I'm sure you've been in a situation where you're standing around waiting to begin at the entrance of Behemoth, Acheron, etc waiting for the last tank or healer to join in. How is it possibly not beneficial to everyone to prioritize this 2/4 or 3/4 progress alliance to the top of the queue, and for fishers to actively seek those alliances?

Fishers are absolutely in the right here, because they are needed the most by parties who are hung up waiting to fill up their alliance.

There is no problem in the system. The only "problem" is the complaining by players who are frustrated by clicking on commence duty and having others withdraw. Again, read my previous post to see how this is a problem generated by the imbalance of roles and the active choice of individuals to play undesired roles.

[Tiraelina]

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You know what? Those groups will still get filled up with or without you being able to see if its in progress and without a dedicated queue. If you don't like it stick to Party Finder or learn to cooperate with your fellow players that are just so insufferable you can't bear being in a full run with. The game isn't going to bend over for you because you want a shortcut.

[Doo]

You know what? Those groups will still get filled up with or without you being able to see if its in progress and without a dedicated queue. If you don't like it stick to Party Finder or learn to cooperate with your fellow players that are just so insufferable you can't bear being in a full run with. The game isn't going to bend over for you because you want a shortcut.

Exactly lol. Queue fishers acting like they are doing some noble deed when all they are trying to do is cheat the system. Make it blind queue so it would be a luck factor whether you get a chance at faster farming or not while helping others in the process.

[YuriRamona]

You know what? Those groups will still get filled up with or without you being able to see if its in progress and without a dedicated queue. If you don't like it stick to Party Finder or learn to cooperate with your fellow players that are just so insufferable you can't bear being in a full run with. The game isn't going to bend over for you because you want a shortcut.

I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater ("bend over") for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS).

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, either stop playing DPS or start playing tanks and healers.

[Tiraelina]

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I've been playing a tank since I started these games. You are not a special snowflake. You don't deserve anything. This has nothing to do with DPS queues. Posts like yours are just reinforcing the need to shut down this behaviour.

[YuriRamona]

I've been playing a tank since I started these games. You are not a special snowflake. You don't deserve anything. This has nothing to do with DPS queues. Posts like yours are just reinforcing the need to shut down this behaviour.

This has everything to do with DPS queues. Granted, balancing role population would not eliminate in-progress fishing. However, if tanks (and to a lesser extent, healers) did not get instant queues, then they would not fish as often or agressively. And the reason that fishers get instant queues is because of the role imbalance due primarily to a preponderance of DPS players.

Players who play desired roles such as tanks and healers can and should be encouraged with incentives.

I never said I was a "special snowflake" and deserved anything. The personal attacks are not appreciated. Just because I'm defending others doesn't mean I'm inviting character attacks. Let's debate the issue and not each other's motivations.

Your personal anecdote is certainly valid. However, I contend that more people would play tanks (and still be cooperative, nice players) if we gave them more incentives. Although you don't need more incentives to continue playing a tank, other players do.