"In-Progress" queue fishing has to stop

[Zfz]

As far as i know you will be immidiately put back into the front of the que

This is my reply to another thread:

This is because you are getting a different group of people each time.

The matching system works in a two-stage process.

Stage 1: form a party from each of the role queues. Once the party is formed, send them to stage 2.
Stage 2: allocate instance, then pop the Commence dialog.

When someone withdraws, you restart from stage one, from scratch. That means the party is completely dissolved, everyone (except the one who withdrew) is thrown back to their respective role queues, and the system starts forming you into a new party as if you've never went past stage 1 in the first place.

This process is also why you can pop the Commence dialog (meaning you have been successfully allocated an instance), then someone withdraws, and then you form a new party only to sit at the Server Reservation.

It's also why at odd hours when there's only 1 tank in the world queueing dungeons, you could have 1 DD timeout (i.e. 1/1, 1/1, 1/2 at the Commence dialog) and then go back to staring at 0/1 1/1 2/2. It's because that only tank got sent to a different party.

So yes, we're put back to the front of the queue, but each time you withdraw from the Commence dialog, you force the other 3 people to reform a party.

Just accept that you are wasting people's time. Because it's a fact.

[wildgalax]

This is my reply to another thread:



So yes, we're put back to the front of the queue, but each time you withdraw from the Commence dialog, you force the other 3 people to reform a party.


Just accept that you are wasting people's time. Because it's a fact.

Theres no proof that it works that way so its not a fact. Even if it did that still leaves x amount of healers that are willing to click commence and y that aern't, whether the 'y's never logged in, or qued. Even if your case was true, the long run you will likely be favoured and pushed to the front other times to the back, so it would even out.

[Zfz]

Theres no proof that it works that way so its not a fact.

The Commence dialog means you have been allocated instance resource. It means "You may enter RIGHT NOW."
When someone withdraws, we are thrown back to the front of our respective role queues. (This was confirmed by devs.)
A system message says reforming party, and then, as many of us have experienced, we sit at "Server Reservation".

The above are the facts.

Why, after we have been given resources, would we need to wait for that resource again? Obviously because the resource have been given to other people. (Unless you think each time someone withdraws, it creates an empty instance that nobody can access.)

This means even though we were at the front of our queues (hence the Commence dialog), when someone withdraw, others take over our "entitled resources" and get into an instance before us.

Hence whoever withdraws, is wasting people's time.

--

And even out or not isn't the problem. The problem is wasting people's time.

[wildgalax]

The Commence diale.

i still dont see how that proves that we are losing our spots in the que, and if we did go to the back of the line thats probably something se should've thought and changed by now.

And like i said earlier, even if that was the case with the ques in the long run you would have almost the same waiting time as if no one had withdrawn, since you would be favoured at times and other times not.

You may also want to think if your stuck in one of those dungeons and are waiting for a healer/tank, wouldn't you rather 1 join then them being in a fresh dungeon? So look at the big picture. At the end you have to weigh it out, there's no way anything will be perfect. However if they implement changes like some people have suggested of locking people out, i dont see that as a positive implementation. Either way its not going to affect me, it may just mean i wont be able to help people out in dungeons that they are struggling in.

[Zfz]

i still dont see how that proves that we are losing our spots in the que, and if we did go to the back of the line thats probably something se should've thought and changed by now.

There's two queues. The Role queue, and the Server Reservation queue. The server reservation queue is only visible when congestion happens, but it exists all the time. At off-peak hours we just progress through the Server Reservation queue so quickly we don't notice it. The fact that after reforming a party, we have to wait for server resources (which was already allocated to us before) proves the existence of the server reservation queue. There is no other explanation, unless you think that when a lot of people are waiting for server resources with a full party, the server randomly chooses who gets the resources next.

Withdraw hurts most when server reservation queue is visible, because when Commence dialog pops, you're at the front of the reservation queue, and having someone withdraw returns you to the role queue to reform a party, after which you are place into the back of the reservation queue. If we were placed at the front of the server reservation queue, then once we have Commence, withdraws shouldn't matter because we'd just quickly get a new member and Commence should pop instantly again. The fact that Commence don't pop instantly means we're not inserted at the front of the server reservation queue.

And like i said earlier, even if that was the case with the ques in the long run you would have almost the same waiting time as if no one had withdrawn, since you would be favoured at times and other times not.

You will only get pushed forward if the person who withdraws is the same role as you are. Which means most damage dealers are shafted. They get longer queues because a tank is fishing for in-progress. In the long run they just get longer and longer wait times. And that is the point of this thread.

You may also want to think if your stuck in one of those dungeons and are waiting for a healer/tank, wouldn't you rather 1 join then them being in a fresh dungeon? So look at the big picture.

Yes, definitely we want replacements to work. The whole "in-progress" feature is so replacements can be funneled into the matching system. However, it was never designed for people to say "I want only in-progress". Else it would have been designed that way in the first place.

The big picture is this.

1. There are people who want only in-progress dungeons so badly that they do in-progress fishing.
2. There are so many of these people that others have noticed the phenomena.
3. In-progress fishing is hurting people's experiences.

What you have been saying is that #3 is false. However you have not provided anything to explain away the situations I've given previously in my posts. If you cannot explain those situations which we are presenting as evidence that #3 is true, then why are you so confident that #3 is false?

I'd love to hear alternative conjectures on how DF works behind the scenes, since devs won't tell us. If there's anything you've noticed, please do share, and I'd be more than happy to support in-progress fishing if it becomes apparent that everybody is better off by it.

[wildgalax]

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I envy your technical knowledge in this que system, however i still dont see how that boils down to you being pushed back to the end of the line. Even if you are put back into the role que after someone withdraws, how do we know you aernt first? well thats the thing i just don't see any proof of it. If we go with your theory then, how does it happen that you get the window popped up in sequence like 20 times like people have shown, there is 1 tank obviously, however there is bound to be more dps roles so how is it that the same tank is now pooled with you again when you should have been pushed to the back of the line, and him to fill up that spot whoever is first.

"waits get longer and longer"

Dps ques are already long, and its not because of fishers, its just the fact that a lot of people play dps roles. My point was even if you are pushed back to the end of the line, at any given time you will always have a certain amount of tanks/healers that will click 'commence', and someone from the dps pool has to go with them. So even if assume you are pushed to the back of the line, that means someone else who was second in line will get the pop up window, now if that goes through they get lucky if it doesnt to the back of the line. So someone will be getting fast ques, someone longer. However after 1000 tries you are bound to have some short ques, some long, and some medium, so my point is your long time average is going to be pretty much the same, whether people withdraw or not.

At the end it all comes to se, they implemented this feature, i would assume they put in place where you dont lose your que. Forget fishers, cause thats not the only issue then, since a lot of people change their minds, afk, forget, etc. And im pretty sure there are way more people withdrawing for reasons outside of searching for an in progress run. There is way more to the picture then just fishers.

Anyway i would really like to see what se thinks about this issue, cause to me its all pretty childish.

[Lukahn]

This guy/gal.

You're crazy if you think SE isn't going to fix this.

[Lukahn]

Theres no proof that it works that way so its not a fact. Even if it did that still leaves x amount of healers that are willing to click commence and y that aern't, whether the 'y's never logged in, or qued. Even if your case was true, the long run you will likely be favoured and pushed to the front other times to the back, so it would even out.

It doesn't matter how right you think you are. The fact of the matter is that whether you are wasting people's time or not (sometimes you are, sometimes you aren't,) you are absolutely getting on almost everyone's nerves, which is obnoxious and rude. How you feel about that is up to you. The feature isn't there because you "don't feel like running the whole dungeon."