Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

[Archona]

I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:



We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

[Kinseykinz]

There are a multitude of key points that people seem to fail to grasp.

• The in-progress parties that have lost a member should be top priority in the queue.
• One of the reasons that parties lose members is because they are failing to progress in the duty at a reasonable pace.
• The long queues exist only because there is a disproportionate number of DPS compared to tanks and healers. This is the root cause of these problems, and it is created by the DPS themselves. We can't address this issue, obviously, but people need to be aware that this is very much a player-community-caused problem.
  

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.

No, the ONLY reason there is a tank/healer slot open for your 2/3 progress queue in the first place is typically because after a wipe or something stupid happened...something that might not have even been the fault of a remaining party member, the Tank/healer left them. After 1 mistake. Or after entering and seeing 'someone is new' or the have the wrong 'type' of DD for that dungeon etc.

Again, the DF is get this, NOT the only way to queue up for content. You can form your own parties to your own expectations....but even this doesn't happen as much anymore because that takes tanks and healers willing to start>finish an instance, and since as you say, they get rewarded for skipping most of the dungeon, less and less tanks/healers are even willing to party up with their own friends/FC's to do this content.


What you really want is this:

1. Reward-spread stays the same in each instance (so best reward still at end)
2. You have queue options:
-Start at beginning
-2/3
-and maybe an 'I feel like helping someone, randomly assign me where most needed'

because that's how you are treating it. So how about this. If tanks and healers can continue to abuse 'Join in Progress' than from now on, so can everyone else. EVERYONE can cue for 2/3 of every dungeon. It's just a checkbox.
Oh but wait...that will now make the DF lines long for the 'skippers' and that isn't cool?

That's basically what happens if you separate the queues...even if it isn't listed that way, and only as 'Fresh' and 'In progress' by dividing up the players, at MOST you only have half as many people to party with (because now the only people who can unlock the instance are those selecting 'start', and those waiting in the 'in-progress queue will only be able to enter if one of the starters leave...So now, you have less people to select from to actually start and unlock the Duty but MORE people waiting for someone to rage quit so everyone will have longer queue times (especially, and most amusingly for the 'Join in Progress' folk).

Not only that, the reason Tanks and Healers can even abuse this feature currently is because their counterparts who DID queue at the duty entrance, did most of the dungeon and then for whatever reason (probably a modest party mistake...one mistake), got all princessy and left, not concerned about their 30 min lockout. Why? because they can queue instantly after their 30 minutes is up...many times for an in progress party and so they can save time/spend the same amount of time and still 'punish noobs' or 'not have to deal with stupidity'

You understand that the only way and 'In-progress' entrance window can pop is because some group of 4 or 8 entered that instance from the start right? And without enough people reliably and consistantly doing that, the whole 'join in progress' feature wouldn't even work? So separating out the queues not only hurts those wishing to do a full run, but it hurts the 'skippers' too. So those who DO want to be able to join 'in-progress' groups actually benefit more from the 'blind entry' plan over the 'separate queues plan'. Because if it's blind, sure people might leave when it's not 'the spot they wanted to queue at'....but them leaving=your opening. Separating the queues just makes the 'In-progress' function broken and useless. (Because either too many people will use it=loooooong queue times or no one will=stranded parties)

[Fyce]

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.

Good.
Nobody wants to play a MMO surrounded by selfish people who just want to skip the content and eat another piece of their fast-food MMO.
They can go away.

[necrosis]

I am sick and tired of people saying "make in-progress separate' as a solution to the problem.

Things will only get WORSE. People will not join at the beginning thus making groups that start at the beginning rare as all hell. Its a catch 22.

Leave a loophole and only the really unscrupulous people will make use of it. Make it a legit thing and MORE people will do it.

[Pooky]

When someone checks Join in Progress, it should mean they are willing to join a group in progress, not they are looking to join a group in progress. Once you establish that, don't reveal whether a group is starting fresh or in progress until you actually get into the dungeon. If you wanna quit then, great, 30 minute timer. Currently the system encourages people to look for groups in progress. You can't really expect people to not wanna do half a dungeon when their goal is just the myth or drop at the end when the game makes it easy to have that mentality.

[Kinseykinz]

Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

To be honest it wouldn't be that bad to have blind queues. But you have to make up for that lost incentive in some other way. We can solve the frustrating problem of queue fishers and cancelled queues, but if tanks and healers simply aren't queuing anymore, we need to encourage them. Your idea of satchel rewards would likely work, kind of with the duty roulette 'in-demand' role, but something more substantial besides a few hundred gil.

1. I am a 1.0 vet. I have literally since my first footsteps in Eorzea had a CNJ (back then CON) stick in my hand. I liked the class. Back then it was hybrid Nuker/healer. When it turned into the WHM, I stayed CNJ/WHM as my main, even though I had THM 50 as well, because I liked it's lore/role and just basic gameplay better. There was no 'faster queue' consideration or even 'I'm the healer I'm needed' consideration. I picked what I liked and what worked with my friends. I am leveling PLD currently because it's in short supply in my FC...and because it's my last job to level. Again, not a 'faster queue' consideration.

2. SE already does have incentives for being 'a player in need' <---SE's words not mine. Every day in the Duty Roulette whichever role is most needed gets a small bonus to exp/gil/tomes/seals (depending on duty). 85% of the time, that bonus=tank bonus. Now, maybe those need to be beefed up to be more enticing, but the program already exists to reward those willing to take on needed roles. But no, outside the completion bonus/player in need bonus, there shouldn't be an additional reward for simply showing up with a sword and shield. At some point, they need to be doing the dungeons because they want to/want the actual rewards from the dungeon.

3. If content isn't being played...or if specific party roles keep avoiding the same content, then SE needs to look at why is this happening and adjust the content/party role so it IS being used. For example SCH/SMN's use to avoid Aurum Veil due to the difficulty of keeping the pet alive and still healing party/dding during 2 of the 3 bosses. SE fixed that dungeon that those boss room poison effects now don't effect the pet. Pharos Sirius is avoided currently by many, but especially WHM's. SE may or may not change how Siren's Charm effects work...or their timings to encourage more whm's in PS. Warrior had big adjustments in this patch because people were choosing to double up on PLDs rather than do content PLD/WAR. The list goes on. So sometimes it IS good to let the chips fall where they may and not force everything. If people don't do content, play a certain job, there is a reason. It is SE's job to find the reason and solve it.


But the whole 'there's not enough tanks...so if we make it so they can't keep abusing us there will be even less tanks' argument, is faulty at best. The way join in progress can be spammed needs to be changed. If by changing it it now means tanks will refuse to queue for content, then SE will have to solve that. ...but really, tanks won't stop queuing. They believe it or not, need the items too. They are just taking advantage of something while they can. When that option is taken away, they will maybe whine about it for a bit, and then come back in and play with everyone else.

[Zumi]

Problem exists due to the number of people not willing to play Tanks. If there were more people willing to play tank yea this wouldn't happen. But since there is a tank shortage this makes it possible to fish for a 3/4 or 2/3 run.

[Kinseykinz]

Problem exists due to the number of people not willing to play Tanks. If there were more people willing to play tank yea this wouldn't happen. But since there is a tank shortage this makes it possible to fish for a 3/4 or 2/3 run.

Actually, I'd suggest we have plenty of tanks...I mean you only got that 2/3 run queue snipe because some other tank left that dungeon in the first place right? How often do DD's leave dungeons...we all know, not nearly as often...even when things are going OMG bad.

So for every dungeon run you 'snipe' that means that one instance needed: 2 tanks/1 healer/2 DD's ...so 2 tanks for an instance designed for 1.

Not only that, but now, that tank who left=30 minute lockout before they can re-enter with another group/fill in for a tank who left. And the tank that filled in is now leaving an empty tank slot that prevents another party from entering. So just those 2 tanks alone slowed down at least 2 if not more groups of players.

So maybe, just maybe, if you couldn't easily 'snipe' on tank anymore, the DF queues would even out and we could get more content done with the same amount of tanks.

[Fyce]

Problem exists due to the number of people not willing to play Tanks. If there were more people willing to play tank yea this wouldn't happen. But since there is a tank shortage this makes it possible to fish for a 3/4 or 2/3 run.

Yes. But this is not a reason to encourage people to do it even if it can occasionally help a group in need of a new member.

Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve.

You just lost the argument by dropping this one.
Selfishness, bad behaviors and bothering attitude should not, under any circumstances, be rewarded nor encouraged. Ever.

[LineageRazor]

I am not an altruist. My time is valuable, and while I will help people out from time to time, I do not feel that I have a moral obligation to, or that I should drop what I'm doing and lend a hand whenever asked. If the Roulette system didn't provide the rewards that it did, I probably wouldn't use it, or at least not nearly as much. That said, there's a difference between self-interest and being disrespectful towards others. Every run you turn down because they weren't in-progress is a group of players that need your help - that you implicitly AGREED to help by using the system provided, but then backed out on.

On top of all that, as folks have mentioned, allowing an "in-progress-only" option WOULDN'T WORK. All the tanks and healers jockeying for an easy run would pile into the "in-progress-only" slot, and none of those people would be available to help out a full run. With fewer tanks and healers willing to help out on full runs, far fewer full runs would happen, DD queue times would be nearly as terrible as before Roulette was introduced, and the tanks and healers that WERE willing to lend a hand on a full run would be unlikely to be prima-donna types that bail on a run (since those prima-donna types will just load into "in-progress-only"). All this adds up to "In-progress" folks sitting around in Roulette, waiting for the rare honestly disconnected player to free up a slot somewhere. While it's nice to have that resource available, I seriously doubt it's the instant-queue, fast win that folks are envisioning here.

The very existence of a display of the progress of the group that you're about to join is perplexing; it's hard to understand what value SE thought it was going to add to the game, and it's clear now this opportunity to cherry-pick should be removed.

You selected Roulette. You're being paid to help another group. Your entitlements end there.