Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

[YuriRamona]

No, there should NOT be 2 cues.

Look again, and I don't know how to make this more clear:

Join in Progress IS NOT, a speed to the end/get to skip a boss or 2 card. It was NEVER intended to used for such purposes or intended to be a 'skip' button. It was a 'sure, I don't mind helping' button. It was actually intended to help out groups who got stuck or abandoned. Therefore, there should NOT be 2 cues. Because the reality is you should always plan on starting from the beginning of any Duty you join. That is how each dungeon was intended to be played. So no, there should not be 2 cues because the whole point of 'Join In Progress', which is to HELP others, is lost then.

They need to separate the in progress queue in order to fix the problem. Any other suggestion is ignorant and childish and spawned out of pure entitlement. That 3 day ban? Ha! What a joke. The emotions of a child crying when they don't get their way.

News flash- That 3 day ban means that nobody gets the tank that wanted to queue, so you are hurting other players experience in order to cater to your own. Pathetic OP.

Best solution, and imo easiest to implement is to not show the progress of the dungeon whatsoever.

Don't separate the queues, because that'll just make queue times terrible for everyone.

There are no downsides. Every game I've ever played with an instance matching system did this. You could flag yourself as "able to join an in-progress dungeon," but it would never tell you if it was new or half-completed. You wouldn't find that out until you got in.

Splitting the queues apart completely? No. That just encourages toxic, greed-driven behavior. These people aren't queue fishing to help people finish runs. They just want an easy 50 myth tomes or to snipe that last boss's drop.

This will lead to a situation where "regular people" will feel that they are wasting time going through the dungeon while other people are getting profit over their efforts, and so they will just join the "In-progress fishing club" like everyone else.

Problem is: if nobody (or few people) want to start a fresh dungeon anymore, there will be no (or very few) parties "in-progress" to join, making you (in-progress queue people) wait forever. Especially for a DPS slot. Thus, no point doing this.

There are a multitude of key points that people seem to fail to grasp.

• The in-progress parties that have lost a member should be top priority in the queue.
• One of the reasons that parties lose members is because they are failing to progress in the duty at a reasonable pace.
• The long queues exist only because there is a disproportionate number of DPS compared to tanks and healers. This is the root cause of these problems, and it is created by the DPS themselves. We can't address this issue, obviously, but people need to be aware that this is very much a player-community-caused problem.
  

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.

I think they should separate them . It takes forever to get a in progress group , im sick of having to withdraw from ones that aren't in progress.

Thank you for the voice of reason.

[Traek]

Forcing players to join blindly in-progress or from the start will disincentivize players from using the duty finder at all. It's risky enough to use the duty finder and landing in a bad alliance that has at least progressed halfway or more; it's even worse to risk the chance of joining a bad alliance that has to start from the beginning. Given time, players in desired roles will opt out altogether and use the Party Finder.

The idea that we can control people's selfish behavior is misguided. Placing greater penalties on them will just cause them to use alternative methods or to simply leave altogether.
You want players to be encouraged to join because of the incentive of not having to run the first parts of the dungeon.
Thank you for the voice of reason.

What don't people understand? We've already discussed a multitude of times that two separate queues wouldn't work. It'd actually slow down parties being made, and is rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR. Queue in progress is to HELP people, NOT YOURSELF. A blind queue system with the OPTION to *queue in progress* is the best answer by far. This means people will click commence either way, priority on "in progress" groups will be there, and if the tank so chooses to click the *in progress* button, they'll get in one as it opens.

Griefers will be griefers, and deliberately afking/logging out is douche behavior that deserves ban time. In progress dungeons is not for the tanks convenience, it is to help the unfortunately stranded groups.

[YuriRamona]

What don't people understand? We've already discussed a multitude of times that two separate queues wouldn't work. It'd actually slow down parties being made, and is rewarding BAD BEHAVIOR. Queue in progress is to HELP people, NOT YOURSELF. A blind queue system with the OPTION to *queue in progress* is the best answer by far. This means people will click commence either way, priority on "in progress" groups will be there, and if the tank so chooses to click the *in progress* button, they'll get in one as it opens.

I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS, which would be incredibly unfair). Therefore, we need MORE incentives (MORE than allowing for fishing) to solve this problem.

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, we need more people to stop playing DPS and start playing tanks and healers.

Stopping queue fishing is just patching up a symptom of a greater problem, which is role imbalance. We need more incentives for tanks and healers, not less.

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

To be honest it wouldn't be that bad to have blind queues. But you have to make up for that lost incentive in some other way. We can solve the frustrating problem of queue fishers and cancelled queues, but if tanks and healers simply aren't queuing anymore, we need to encourage them. Your idea of satchel rewards would likely work, kind of with the duty roulette 'in-demand' role, but something more substantial besides a few hundred gil.

[necrosis]

Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

Speak for yourself and not everyone. I did not start playing WHM on day one because I thought it would mean quick queues. If I could foresee that happening I should start investing in stocks. I actually started it so I could cross-class cure to make soloing a DPS job easier. Turns out I actually liked the role (having NEVER played a mage job in any MMO before) and decided to take it to 50.

[Traek]

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

This then flies in the face of their end result. Blind queues would stop the cherry picking, and its a proven working system in WoW that you are praising.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

Oh I totally agree on this, though it isn't completely true as you are talking in absolutes, and I am a straight up example (and there are others) that its not an absolute. When I check in progress I take whats available, if I'm helping a group finish that is great, if I'm starting one up that is great too. My incentive is what I joined the run in the first place for. I think tanks are certainly rare, and wouldn't be against incentive programs for people to queue as tank though, that would be smart of SE to do.

I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

Whether they abandon the duty and decide to take 30min penalties is up to them. If you don't think queuing for a new run in 30mins and getting one even half way is slower then actually completing a dungeon you first get, then you'd be crazy. There shouldn't be any "shortcuts" for anyone, that isn't the design purpose of *Join in progress*, it is to get stranded groups through a dungeon.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

Who said anything about marginalizing players in it for loot? Whether or not you are in it for the loot, you can earn it from where the queue places you, like everyone else. The fact is, you just want to be handed loot for being a desired job. You already receive the reward of being a desired job with instant queues. Stop acting as though blind queues will take away *in progress* groups, because it won't, and will continue to prioritize stranded groups as they come. The incentive is still there, but the ability for a selfish player to queue spam for a run they deem acceptable would not.

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS, which would be incredibly unfair). Therefore, we need MORE incentives (MORE than allowing for fishing) to solve this problem.

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, we need more people to stop playing DPS and start playing tanks and healers.

Stopping queue fishing is just patching up a symptom of a greater problem, which is role imbalance. We need more incentives for tanks and healers, not less.

Again, you are assuming there is no reward for queuing as a tank, and that there is no penalty for queuing as a DD. Literally instant queues as a tank, while DD sit for literally an hour at times is plenty enough to refute that claim. I am not against other incentives to keep desired classes in queues, but being able to choose which boss you want to start at should not be one. Also, you are completely wrong in assuming tanks will stop queuing if the option of "in progress" is taken away. People are joining queues for a reason, whether it be the gear along the way, or the reward at the end (myth tomes), and that incentive never changes. Tanks still want to myth cap at the end of the week, they aren't going to magically disappear if they can't choose to start at Archeon.

[Taliph]

snip

Here is where the issue lies... Needed roles are needed throughout the dungeon, they do not deserve anything more then their fast queue times as compensation.

[Archona]

Thank you for the voice of reason.

Thumbs up for knowing what you're talking about instead of spouting some altruistic crap about how we should all help each other and be self-sacrificial. Thanks for living in the real world and not in a utopian dream world.

Honestly, WoW's LFG system works. It took years of refinement, but the features in place work for a reason. Too bad mentioning WoW is sacreligious here.
-Prioritize in-progress groups
-Queue system needs to be reworked so that the party does not scrap when one person withdraws
-Satchel Rewards for Tank/Healer when they're in demand
-Hide progress so the person queueing does not know how far into the dungeon they are
-When queueing as group, people cannot leave at start of dungeon (no more selling tank queues)

[Traek]

Thumbs up for knowing what you're talking about instead of spouting some altruistic crap about how we should all help each other and be self-sacrificial. Thanks for living in the real world and not in a utopian dream world.

I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:

Honestly, WoW's LFG system works. It took years of refinement, but the features in place work for a reason. Too bad mentioning WoW is sacreligious here.
-Prioritize in-progress groups
-Queue system needs to be reworked so that the party does not scrap when one person withdraws
-Satchel Rewards for Tank/Healer when they're in demand
-Hide progress so the person queueing does not know how far into the dungeon they are
-When queueing as group, people cannot leave at start of dungeon (no more selling tank queues)

We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

[Archona]

I think its funny you are praising a person who opposes the very system you just proposed:



We have been suggesting something similar to this all through out the thread.

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

[necrosis]

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

Wow. Could you sound any more selfish, elitist, "ME ME ME" than with that last line?