Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

[necrosis]

Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

Speak for yourself and not everyone. I did not start playing WHM on day one because I thought it would mean quick queues. If I could foresee that happening I should start investing in stocks. I actually started it so I could cross-class cure to make soloing a DPS job easier. Turns out I actually liked the role (having NEVER played a mage job in any MMO before) and decided to take it to 50.

[necrosis]

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

Wow. Could you sound any more selfish, elitist, "ME ME ME" than with that last line?

[Kinseykinz]

Thank you, thank you. People don't seem to get that people who play tanks and healers don't just do so because it's fun (which it probably is). They do so because of shorter queue times and the possibility of quick rewards.

To be honest it wouldn't be that bad to have blind queues. But you have to make up for that lost incentive in some other way. We can solve the frustrating problem of queue fishers and cancelled queues, but if tanks and healers simply aren't queuing anymore, we need to encourage them. Your idea of satchel rewards would likely work, kind of with the duty roulette 'in-demand' role, but something more substantial besides a few hundred gil.

1. I am a 1.0 vet. I have literally since my first footsteps in Eorzea had a CNJ (back then CON) stick in my hand. I liked the class. Back then it was hybrid Nuker/healer. When it turned into the WHM, I stayed CNJ/WHM as my main, even though I had THM 50 as well, because I liked it's lore/role and just basic gameplay better. There was no 'faster queue' consideration or even 'I'm the healer I'm needed' consideration. I picked what I liked and what worked with my friends. I am leveling PLD currently because it's in short supply in my FC...and because it's my last job to level. Again, not a 'faster queue' consideration.

2. SE already does have incentives for being 'a player in need' <---SE's words not mine. Every day in the Duty Roulette whichever role is most needed gets a small bonus to exp/gil/tomes/seals (depending on duty). 85% of the time, that bonus=tank bonus. Now, maybe those need to be beefed up to be more enticing, but the program already exists to reward those willing to take on needed roles. But no, outside the completion bonus/player in need bonus, there shouldn't be an additional reward for simply showing up with a sword and shield. At some point, they need to be doing the dungeons because they want to/want the actual rewards from the dungeon.

3. If content isn't being played...or if specific party roles keep avoiding the same content, then SE needs to look at why is this happening and adjust the content/party role so it IS being used. For example SCH/SMN's use to avoid Aurum Veil due to the difficulty of keeping the pet alive and still healing party/dding during 2 of the 3 bosses. SE fixed that dungeon that those boss room poison effects now don't effect the pet. Pharos Sirius is avoided currently by many, but especially WHM's. SE may or may not change how Siren's Charm effects work...or their timings to encourage more whm's in PS. Warrior had big adjustments in this patch because people were choosing to double up on PLDs rather than do content PLD/WAR. The list goes on. So sometimes it IS good to let the chips fall where they may and not force everything. If people don't do content, play a certain job, there is a reason. It is SE's job to find the reason and solve it.


But the whole 'there's not enough tanks...so if we make it so they can't keep abusing us there will be even less tanks' argument, is faulty at best. The way join in progress can be spammed needs to be changed. If by changing it it now means tanks will refuse to queue for content, then SE will have to solve that. ...but really, tanks won't stop queuing. They believe it or not, need the items too. They are just taking advantage of something while they can. When that option is taken away, they will maybe whine about it for a bit, and then come back in and play with everyone else.

[Traek]

Nope, I exclusively tank in high level dungeons, and I cherry pick/snipe my runs all the time. The only thing that is contradictory from his post is the fact that I support blind drop-ins, which I wouldn't mind, to be honest. It is a change that has to be made. The rest of his post still makes sense.

This then flies in the face of their end result. Blind queues would stop the cherry picking, and its a proven working system in WoW that you are praising.

People dont run in-progress runs to help others, they do it for their own rewards. That is his major point that a lot of people fail to grasp.

Oh I totally agree on this, though it isn't completely true as you are talking in absolutes, and I am a straight up example (and there are others) that its not an absolute. When I check in progress I take whats available, if I'm helping a group finish that is great, if I'm starting one up that is great too. My incentive is what I joined the run in the first place for. I think tanks are certainly rare, and wouldn't be against incentive programs for people to queue as tank though, that would be smart of SE to do.

I don't understand why you would not only want to take away shortcuts for players who are playing desired roles, but asking players who are selfish to abandon the duty finder.

Whether they abandon the duty and decide to take 30min penalties is up to them. If you don't think queuing for a new run in 30mins and getting one even half way is slower then actually completing a dungeon you first get, then you'd be crazy. There shouldn't be any "shortcuts" for anyone, that isn't the design purpose of *Join in progress*, it is to get stranded groups through a dungeon.

If we are so incensed about the problem of queue fishing and long queues in general, why would we want to marginalize players who are in it for the loot (i.e. the vast majority of players)? Are we really so convinced, despite the overwhelming evidence not only in this game but other MMOs, that players are really willing to help out just for the sake of helping out?

Who said anything about marginalizing players in it for loot? Whether or not you are in it for the loot, you can earn it from where the queue places you, like everyone else. The fact is, you just want to be handed loot for being a desired job. You already receive the reward of being a desired job with instant queues. Stop acting as though blind queues will take away *in progress* groups, because it won't, and will continue to prioritize stranded groups as they come. The incentive is still there, but the ability for a selfish player to queue spam for a run they deem acceptable would not.

I can't tell if you're incredibly short-sighted or just completely ignorant of the reality: either you need to cater for players in desired roles, or greatly discourage people from imbalancing the role make-up (punishing DPS, which would be incredibly unfair). Therefore, we need MORE incentives (MORE than allowing for fishing) to solve this problem.

We can't have our cake (have everyone play DPS) and eat it too (expect everything to work smoothly for DPS and punish non-DPS for expecting incentives).

This is ultimately what it boils down to. Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve. If you want queue fishing to stop, we need more people to stop playing DPS and start playing tanks and healers.

Stopping queue fishing is just patching up a symptom of a greater problem, which is role imbalance. We need more incentives for tanks and healers, not less.

Again, you are assuming there is no reward for queuing as a tank, and that there is no penalty for queuing as a DD. Literally instant queues as a tank, while DD sit for literally an hour at times is plenty enough to refute that claim. I am not against other incentives to keep desired classes in queues, but being able to choose which boss you want to start at should not be one. Also, you are completely wrong in assuming tanks will stop queuing if the option of "in progress" is taken away. People are joining queues for a reason, whether it be the gear along the way, or the reward at the end (myth tomes), and that incentive never changes. Tanks still want to myth cap at the end of the week, they aren't going to magically disappear if they can't choose to start at Archeon.

[Zumi]

Problem exists due to the number of people not willing to play Tanks. If there were more people willing to play tank yea this wouldn't happen. But since there is a tank shortage this makes it possible to fish for a 3/4 or 2/3 run.

[Kinseykinz]

Problem exists due to the number of people not willing to play Tanks. If there were more people willing to play tank yea this wouldn't happen. But since there is a tank shortage this makes it possible to fish for a 3/4 or 2/3 run.

Actually, I'd suggest we have plenty of tanks...I mean you only got that 2/3 run queue snipe because some other tank left that dungeon in the first place right? How often do DD's leave dungeons...we all know, not nearly as often...even when things are going OMG bad.

So for every dungeon run you 'snipe' that means that one instance needed: 2 tanks/1 healer/2 DD's ...so 2 tanks for an instance designed for 1.

Not only that, but now, that tank who left=30 minute lockout before they can re-enter with another group/fill in for a tank who left. And the tank that filled in is now leaving an empty tank slot that prevents another party from entering. So just those 2 tanks alone slowed down at least 2 if not more groups of players.

So maybe, just maybe, if you couldn't easily 'snipe' on tank anymore, the DF queues would even out and we could get more content done with the same amount of tanks.

[Fyce]

Problem exists due to the number of people not willing to play Tanks. If there were more people willing to play tank yea this wouldn't happen. But since there is a tank shortage this makes it possible to fish for a 3/4 or 2/3 run.

Yes. But this is not a reason to encourage people to do it even if it can occasionally help a group in need of a new member.

Stop blaming queue fishers for trying to reap a benefit they deserve.

You just lost the argument by dropping this one.
Selfishness, bad behaviors and bothering attitude should not, under any circumstances, be rewarded nor encouraged. Ever.

[Taliph]

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Here is where the issue lies... Needed roles are needed throughout the dungeon, they do not deserve anything more then their fast queue times as compensation.

[LineageRazor]

I am not an altruist. My time is valuable, and while I will help people out from time to time, I do not feel that I have a moral obligation to, or that I should drop what I'm doing and lend a hand whenever asked. If the Roulette system didn't provide the rewards that it did, I probably wouldn't use it, or at least not nearly as much. That said, there's a difference between self-interest and being disrespectful towards others. Every run you turn down because they weren't in-progress is a group of players that need your help - that you implicitly AGREED to help by using the system provided, but then backed out on.

On top of all that, as folks have mentioned, allowing an "in-progress-only" option WOULDN'T WORK. All the tanks and healers jockeying for an easy run would pile into the "in-progress-only" slot, and none of those people would be available to help out a full run. With fewer tanks and healers willing to help out on full runs, far fewer full runs would happen, DD queue times would be nearly as terrible as before Roulette was introduced, and the tanks and healers that WERE willing to lend a hand on a full run would be unlikely to be prima-donna types that bail on a run (since those prima-donna types will just load into "in-progress-only"). All this adds up to "In-progress" folks sitting around in Roulette, waiting for the rare honestly disconnected player to free up a slot somewhere. While it's nice to have that resource available, I seriously doubt it's the instant-queue, fast win that folks are envisioning here.

The very existence of a display of the progress of the group that you're about to join is perplexing; it's hard to understand what value SE thought it was going to add to the game, and it's clear now this opportunity to cherry-pick should be removed.

You selected Roulette. You're being paid to help another group. Your entitlements end there.

[Ri_ri]

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So it's the tank and healer's moral obligation to "help" others?

Why don't DDs also help others by rolling tanks and healers? Stop demanding others to change, while you don't do anything.

I guess it's easier to just sit back and wish death to our mothers when the group wipes. And of course, blame us when your queues are long.

Who's the selfish party again?