[Discussion] How do you define a fun boss fight?

[Lyrinn]

We've all heard the complaints about Titan and how the mechanics are too unforgiving (one mistake and everyone is out). I don't want this to be a discussion on Titan himself, but in trying to think of solutions, I keep hitting a brick wall. Either you make attacks one-shot and force people to dodge them -- this becomes a binary situation where you either get hit and die or you dodge everything and the fight becomes trivial --, or you make it so that people can survive and they just heal through it (e.g. ADS Enrage). The alternative seems to be to add some gimmick. Go stand here or go do that before you wipe (e.g. Qarn, AV). While they're nice breaks from playing dodgeball, they feel equally unengaging. A mix of the two like Acheron seems about right, except you're always doing one or the other during each phase. Something like Allagan Rot also seems interesting (to me), but clearly, most people don't like it since they prefer enrage.

So what sort of unique mechanics can we add that don't feel like they require constant dodging, yet aren't so gimmicky that they become more of a nuisance than an actual mechanic?

And I guess, by extension, how do you define a fun dungeon?

[Marxam]

1. Relevant, emotionally charged music
2. Boss that give you that "oh shit, here we go" feeling
3. The sense of struggle with your party as you overcome the boss through tactical and sometimes clinch actions.

These are qualities of a great boss fight.

In regards to the Titan X fight, the only thing going for it now is the music.
The feeling I get (as a tank) is "I hope the other players know how to move cuz this is starting to piss me off"
The only struggle you and your party will get is lag and the unfair advantage it gives titan in his OHKO moves

P.S. The first and only boss to give me that impression (I've been gaming since '97) was the Tower Knight in Demon Souls.

[odie]

2. Boss that give you that "oh shit, here we go" feeling

this made me love Titan HM. It took me a while to finally get the fight down (before anyone says watch videos, I did, and its not the same as actually getting in there and fighting him) but my FC helped me have plenty of opportunities to finally figure it out. What I loved was the challenge and the hype titan had before I went in. Everyone zones in, start doing buffs....and you're like "here I am...I'm doing this". It makes the wins so much sweeter when you have to actually work for it.

[Tupsi]

Since we're playing a FF game:

1. Exploiting weaknesses, from elemental or status - If we have a Pieste boss, why can't blind prevent gaze attacks?
2. Bosses that get desperate to kill you before you kill it - Once it hits 20% or lower, that's when it should be a desperate struggle to survive. I mean, you're TRYING TO KILL IT.
3. Requires every party member to know their job, no carrying and gliding through.

Dungeon wise, something open world where you can see other people trying to get through the depths with the boss area being the actual instance.

[Jubez187]

Since we're playing a FF game:

1. Exploiting weaknesses, from elemental or status - If we have a Pieste boss, why can't blind prevent gaze attacks?

Great idea, but this would NEVER work in practice. Here are a few scenerios:

1. Boss is fire, let's all stack ice damage (assume it's the only viable option, easy to acquire ice damage).
1.1. Boss is now way too easy.
1.2. Boss should have been balanced around the party having ice damage (similar to how bosses are pretty much balanced around protect + stoneskin on whole party).
1.3. Now we just made a 1-way decision path that did no enhance the game whatsoever.

2. Boss is fire, let's all stack ice damage (assume the boss could be beaten without it).
2.1. Overkill, boss was too easy. Balance around people exploiting the weakness.

See? there's really no way to implement it because you either make it necessary or you make it unimportant (like how resist potions are now).

[Ri_ri]

Great idea, but this would NEVER work in practice. Here are a few scenerios:

Let me give you one of my scenarios...

Shiva is weak to Fire.
But she casts Reflect in set intervals so casting Fire on her would be suicide.
You can break Reflect with physical attacks.

Done.

Right now the only division between DDs are "melee" or "ranged". It's really bland.

[Naria]

Fights that require skill at your job and coordination between players using the skills of their jobs in varying ways more so that a player's position on a field. I'm fine with position affecting a battle, but not to the current extent.
Also I do miss elemental weaknesses and enfeebling.

[jlewiss]

For me the most fun ive had in any boss fight is haukke manor hard mode 2nd boss. His attacks won't one shot you if you don't dodge but you can't afford to not be paying attention.

[Nekodar]

Sunken Temple of Qarn is a perfect example of a fun dungeon. Especially the last boss.
First two bosses of Copperbell Mines (story) are also fun...
Ward Up guildhest is fun where you have to kill all the mobs within seconds of each other. Other fun guildhests are the goblin bomb toss one and the Bomb Queen one.
Ash (second boss) in Haukke Manor HM is fun too.

Titan HM is a fun fight, but can easily be very frustrating as well depending on how well it goes.

[KoujiGeki]

Risk vs reward