[Discussion] How do you define a fun boss fight?

[Lyrinn]

We've all heard the complaints about Titan and how the mechanics are too unforgiving (one mistake and everyone is out). I don't want this to be a discussion on Titan himself, but in trying to think of solutions, I keep hitting a brick wall. Either you make attacks one-shot and force people to dodge them -- this becomes a binary situation where you either get hit and die or you dodge everything and the fight becomes trivial --, or you make it so that people can survive and they just heal through it (e.g. ADS Enrage). The alternative seems to be to add some gimmick. Go stand here or go do that before you wipe (e.g. Qarn, AV). While they're nice breaks from playing dodgeball, they feel equally unengaging. A mix of the two like Acheron seems about right, except you're always doing one or the other during each phase. Something like Allagan Rot also seems interesting (to me), but clearly, most people don't like it since they prefer enrage.

So what sort of unique mechanics can we add that don't feel like they require constant dodging, yet aren't so gimmicky that they become more of a nuisance than an actual mechanic?

And I guess, by extension, how do you define a fun dungeon?

[Marxam]

1. Relevant, emotionally charged music
2. Boss that give you that "oh shit, here we go" feeling
3. The sense of struggle with your party as you overcome the boss through tactical and sometimes clinch actions.

These are qualities of a great boss fight.

In regards to the Titan X fight, the only thing going for it now is the music.
The feeling I get (as a tank) is "I hope the other players know how to move cuz this is starting to piss me off"
The only struggle you and your party will get is lag and the unfair advantage it gives titan in his OHKO moves

P.S. The first and only boss to give me that impression (I've been gaming since '97) was the Tower Knight in Demon Souls.

[Tupsi]

Since we're playing a FF game:

1. Exploiting weaknesses, from elemental or status - If we have a Pieste boss, why can't blind prevent gaze attacks?
2. Bosses that get desperate to kill you before you kill it - Once it hits 20% or lower, that's when it should be a desperate struggle to survive. I mean, you're TRYING TO KILL IT.
3. Requires every party member to know their job, no carrying and gliding through.

Dungeon wise, something open world where you can see other people trying to get through the depths with the boss area being the actual instance.

[Naria]

Fights that require skill at your job and coordination between players using the skills of their jobs in varying ways more so that a player's position on a field. I'm fine with position affecting a battle, but not to the current extent.
Also I do miss elemental weaknesses and enfeebling.

[jlewiss]

For me the most fun ive had in any boss fight is haukke manor hard mode 2nd boss. His attacks won't one shot you if you don't dodge but you can't afford to not be paying attention.

[Nekodar]

Sunken Temple of Qarn is a perfect example of a fun dungeon. Especially the last boss.
First two bosses of Copperbell Mines (story) are also fun...
Ward Up guildhest is fun where you have to kill all the mobs within seconds of each other. Other fun guildhests are the goblin bomb toss one and the Bomb Queen one.
Ash (second boss) in Haukke Manor HM is fun too.

Titan HM is a fun fight, but can easily be very frustrating as well depending on how well it goes.

[KoujiGeki]

Risk vs reward

[Autumnfire]

I like a good combination of gimmicks, skill checks, and motion. I also love it when there are more than one way to complete the fight, yet it is still hard enough to have to do it over and over again until you get it right.

The easiest example is T2's rot vs enrage. I'm glad both strategies exist.
But also in T4, we had an unconventional team the other night and did really well using our own heads instead of doing things by the book. I love when that can be done.

[Ryuko]

Gimmicks make a fight very fun for me, but there also has to be an added level of difficulty and challenge for me to truly enjoy it. It's difficult to strike a balance between 'fun' and 'hard' because for some players, hard fights just aren't fun to them. Titan's unforgiving mechanics (knocking you off the stage permanently) frustrate a lot of people, but they really only get to me when I'm hit and I was never in the Landslide trajectory in the first place. (That is, they target, I wasn't in it so I don't move, then they hit... and I get hit even though I was NEVER in it.) It confuses and annoys me. Similarly, when people randomly drop even though they were inside the spiny plume's bubble way ahead of time. I've seen it happen to others and to myself. When the game itself 'messes up' and you get insta-killed or removed from the fight because of it.. then it stops being fun. Fortunately, these occurrences don't seem to happen TOO often, but I did have a few runs where someone was dying while inside the bubble almost every time. My only assumption is that lag is causing the game to not update fast enough, or the server thinks you are standing in a different place (but that doesn't make sense because everyone can SEE you next to them on their screen).

[IzumiRaito]

Something that is "learn 2 play" not "get better connection".
Garuda HM and EX, especially as tank, ifrit Ex, mainly as healer or smn are the good examples. Turn 4 is also good untill u get overgeared. 2.0 ifrit hm with no pld and/or no aoe lb as a way of "breaking the meta".
A boss that is using AI instead of scripted events would be very engaging.