"Need" should check ilevel

[ImDingDing]

To... Help... People? So that the person can learn, progress to the next stage and maybe end up helping them? Or helping someone else in turn down the road?

Building a community seems to be lost on MMO players these days.

I have no problem on helping people to pass content which block them or building the community, but why do you expect people to do it for free (even worse, for knowing that they are guaranteed not to get any reward)? The one who get carried will get their relic at the end of the day and they should pass loot to the those who helpped them. If they want that reward, well, come back to help others with their relic and beat the content for real next time. This is called building community.

[Caraway]

I have no problem on helping people to pass content which block them or building the community, but why do you expect people to do it for free (even worse, for knowing that they are guaranteed not to get any reward)? The one who get carried will get their relic at the end of the day and they should pass loot to the those who helpped them. If they want that reward, well, come back to help others with their relic and beat the content for real next time. This is called building community.

I don't believe they shouldn't get some sort of compensation but I'm pretty sure doing pretty much every piece of content that a 50 is going to be in these days does that in the form of Philosophy or Mythology tokens.

That said, I do think there's a problem with the loot system in this game in that you only ever end up having one item dropping from a chest/boss.

[ispano]

I'm not forgetting that at all actually. If there aren't specific rules outside of what SE put forth how can you say it's NOT a speed run? There's a timer after all, shouldn't the timer imply you should be shooting for a record time? How can you possibly say this isn't a speed run when there's a timer RIGHT THERE!? I can go on like this forever. Look, you're flailing and I'm done.

But you are. I can say it's not a speed run because people want to experience the dungeon normally. You have no right to force them to run it YOUR way, nor can they force you to run it their way. So long as you refuse to look at other points of view and ACCEPT them as valid, even if you disagree, you're not getting anywhere.

[kayuwoody]

Hi Worm, you've convinced me. I now agree that rolling against someone else who would benefit more from the in game stats of a piece of gear would be a selfish act. But I am not yet convinced that being selfish is wrong in this case.

Like someone else stated, the only way things would work if you had your way is if people are segregated based on their gear levels.

You're basically spouting communism. Let the haves, help out the have nots. This is a beautiful ideal, but doesn't work in reality.
I'll use an analogy, I know it's skewed: In the country of Worm, Peasant A is a gambling addict who spends his income on alcohol and gambles the rest away. As a result Peasant A is constantly low on cash for necessities, like food for his 3 starving children. Peasant B is a hard working upstanding member. They both are assigned by their employer to go plough field 453. While plowing the field, they stumble across a hidden cache of cash. You would have me believe Peasant B should give Peasant A more of the cash because he "needs it more".

The problem is this is a MMO of strangers. I don't know the guy in my dutyfinder from Jack. I don't know why he has lousier gear than me. Maybe he has 8 other classes he splits his time on, whereas I only have this one so I seem to be better geared. I have no loyalty to him. Why shouldn't I be selfish? If I am in a dungeon for a specific piece of gear even if it's just vanity, how is my time spent running the dungeon any less valuable from the strangers in the dungeon with me? If anything, we have worked together to get to the loot chest, and I may possibly have contributed to a quicker more efficient run then they would have had without me. I on the other hand, probably used more time than I would have had to if the whole party was at my gear level.
Should I just drop the party the moment I see someone else has a greater "need" than mine? Bear in mind, this is also, a game.

[Noahlimits]

Hate to say it but you don't need vanity gear, you want it. And this is coming from someone who loves vanity gear and being able to customize their characters to look a certain way. Whereas this game does make it so that you do need that +3 to your stats because of the way the Duty Finder's implemented and the required iLVL for things.

Hate to say it but you don't need that Garuda weapon stat upgrade over Ifrit. You want it. Ifrit weapon is totally doable to beat Titan, so that means you should only greed on the Garuda weapon if it drops, right?

Btw, having full darklight and a GC weapon gets you past any ilvl duty finder restriction aside from EX primals.

[Worm]

But you are. I can say it's not a speed run because people want to experience the dungeon normally. You have no right to force them to run it YOUR way, nor can they force you to run it their way. So long as you refuse to look at other points of view and ACCEPT them as valid, even if you disagree, you're not getting anywhere.

So it's what Schrodinger's dungeon run? Both a speed run and not a speed run at the same time? Cutscenes are meant to be watched and skipped at the same time too? You're fading fast here. I'm not forcing anyone run my way, I'm just providing superior arguments as to why people should behave one way over another.

Hi Worm, you've convinced me. I now agree that rolling against someone else who would benefit more from the in game stats of a piece of gear would be a selfish act. But I am not yet convinced that being selfish is wrong in this case.

That's fine, quote Wallstreet for the rest of the thread if you want. As long as you can accept there is some greater benefit for gear to a new player vs. vanity or seals to an older player I'm perfectly fine with whatever you do really. It's the complete refusal of associating even slightly negative words to this behavior that gets on my nerves. Also geez resorting to calling me a communist ... I think I know what your favorite news station is!

The problem is this is a MMO of strangers. I don't know the guy in my dutyfinder from Jack. I don't know why he has lousier gear than me. Maybe he has 8 other classes he splits his time on, whereas I only have this one so I seem to be better geared. I have no loyalty to him. Why shouldn't I be selfish? If I am in a dungeon for a specific piece of gear even if it's just vanity, how is my time spent running the dungeon any less valuable from the strangers in the dungeon with me? If anything, we have worked together to get to the loot chest, and I may possibly have contributed to a quicker more efficient run then they would have had without me. I on the other hand, probably used more time than I would have had to if the whole party was at my gear level.

Oh right they're strangers. Too bad there's no way to alleviate that or communicate loot concerns :P If you have a player who is on his 5th level 50 job maybe he'll just say "Oh fine I'll pass if that drops", maybe communicating with people would actually increase your chance for this gear? I really think that's your issue here, you can't imagine people in your duty finder groups are ... actually people. Though let me assure you they are and if you communicate intentions during the dungeon and are polite about it more people will pass than not. All the examples throughout this thread demonstrate a complete fear of communicating with someone in duty finder, and it's just silly.

Bear in mind, this is also, a game.

Ah you had such a great post and you ruined it with this cop out. Look if you're sick of arguing with me just stop, but don't come out here with more of this "It doesn't even matter" junk. It's a game, so what? It's a social interaction between human beings and that implies a multitude of things. Flipping a checker board is rude, even if it's a game. This is a crappy old argument, please stop using it.

Hate to say it but you don't need that Garuda weapon stat upgrade over Ifrit. You want it. Ifrit weapon is totally doable to beat Titan, so that means you should only greed on the Garuda weapon if it drops, right?

This is sort of semantics. You need higher stats and exp in MMOs it's literally the only thing your character needs. He doesn't need water, he doesn't need food, but he needs XP and stat increases. Just because those pieces of gear may not be the ONLY way to meet the needs doesn't mean it's no longer a need. It's a need but there are just two ways of fulfilling it. If that person gets very stuck on Titan or is in particularly low DPS groups yes the Garuda weapon can be what pushes them over. If they don't have the time to farm full Darklight then they'll certainly need ilvl from HM dungeon and CT drops. This is compounded by the fact that ilvl is a new form of attunement for content, so actually in these modern style of MMOs gear is even MORE important than it was previously.

[Noahlimits]

This is sort of semantics.

But your argument is just hypothetical situations. You don't NEED the stat increase from Ifrit to Garuda to beat Titan. A competent party with all ifrit weapons has more than enough DPS to take down heart. Everything else is subjective to the people in your party and if they suck or not (or are entirely undergeared.. which usually go hand in hand).

[Worm]

But your argument is just hypothetical situations.

Ut! I didn't know your examples were all based on actual events. Pulling out this super focused example expanding to make a statement about all gear and ragging on me for using 'hypotheticals' is pretty silly. Yeah maybe in this super limited example you don't need a Garuda weapon over an Ifrit weapon, but are you saying you should actually pass on Ifrit weapons so new players can get that gear? Somehow I think you're probably not saying that.

[ispano]

So it's what Schrodinger's dungeon run? Both a speed run and not a speed run at the same time? Cutscenes are meant to be watched and skipped at the same time too? You're fading fast here. I'm not forcing anyone run my way, I'm just providing superior arguments as to why people should behave one way over another.

That's the thing though, you're not. You only believe it's superior. If there was a factual reason it was superior, you might have a point. But it's not. There is no law of mmos that says someone going for progression must always trump someone looking for vanity. Especially when vanity is intended as part of the game.

Also, you should know this. I agree with progression before vanity before seals. I always greed for seals, never need. But guess what? That doesn't mean I can't see it from someone else's mindset. Doesn't mean my view is the proper one over others.

[Worm]

Of course being a courteous and kind person is more proper than being a greedy person who doesn't care about others, I mean what kind of people do you prefer to surround yourself with? Either you really don't believe any improper behavior exists outside of breaking laws(which is crazy, murder would be wrong even if it wasn't illegal) or you're just flailing endlessly to win an internet argument throwing out whatever you can hoping it sticks.