"Need" should check ilevel

[Worm]

Appeal to authority and back pedaling to act like anyone was just defending vanity alone, you're defending any kind of spiteful needing. So we've went from "Everything is relative", "That's like just your opinion", and finally "Square wants me to need on vanity gear". These are actually getting worse not better, you know that right?

Every argument you make and the entire mindset you sponsor is one where anyone can roll need on any piece of gear for any reason. Hey if SE didn't want me to need on all these items and turn them into GC Seals why can I? Hey if SE didn't want me to roll on gear and discard it to spite another player why can I? It's just nonsense.

Look no one is required to do anything, I think we know that. Though do you really think needing on gear for seals or to just discard out of spite can't be called 'bad'? You guys were the ones who (after tons of out of the box thinking) went with the premise of "any time you roll need on gear it's perfectly okay no matter why you want it", I can't blame you for wanting to back off that premise, but you have to move your argument somewhere else and "Square wants me to roll need for vanity" is just silly.

edit: I mean what Square says really is very off base since we're not even talking about specific examples, we're talking in general. I mean what are you implying? That it's not okay to roll need for vanity on the gear that SE didn't make with vanity in mind? All that gear is made with vanity in mind just as much as any other gear in any other game. This is completely beside the point. I'm saying there are times when you shouldn't need you're saying there aren't times when you shouldn't need, except with a pre-formed group with pre-stated loot rules. That's all there is here.

[Maku]

snip

Personally I greed on anything simply for getting GC seals. That aside. Needing something for vanity purposes or even for GC seals is not spiteful in anyway. You do indeed need the item for something. You seem to be grouping the previous two situations with people who need just to toss the item to be spiteful. Do those kind of people actually exist? If they actually exist or not beside the point doing this is indeed spiteful but the previous two are not spiteful at all.

Someone mentioned helping people out in DF so that they may help you out later. Seriously? Thousands of people play this game and in the DF Server Groups you are highly unlikely to ever run into the same person again so that is a totally mutt point.

Totally random groups have no set rules. Aside from being a total dick and and lotting simply to toss gear (which is totally different then turning things in to GC seals).

[Worm]

By your rules, vanity players can't get rewards if they group with progression players.

Your loot system has no answer for segregation, other than appealing to community building. I think maybe I disagree that helping people progress is the only way to build community. I do a lot of DF, and DR. I'm friendly, explain tactics, make jokes, even though I'm probably not going to see them again. It's great if they progress, but I want to achieve my goals, too.

Denying loot to geared players discourages players mixing. Mixing and giving everyone rewards builds community, not telling some people to form their own groups.

You feel strongly about this, but I'm not convinced you have a system that works. Is your idea more advanced than "You should give people progression gear. If that prevents you from achieving your goals and discourages you from mixing, too bad. Sorry that you can't get the stuff you want but maybe someday everyone will be geared and you'll get a chance."?

I feel like you might be mistaking me for the OP, I don't want another loot system. I mean if you're so affable with everyone in DF and DR do you think mentioning at the beginning of a run you want to need on items for vanity purposes would go over so poorly? I'm not saying people can't need for vanity, I'm saying that the argument of "Of course people can need for vanity, actually it's their right to need ... for any reason!" is a bad way to justify vanity rolling.

You keep forgetting that this is about DF runs, random runs. Runs that don't have specific rules outside of what SE has put forth. It's the same as people wanting to force speed runs in DF/Roulette runs of CM/Prae. It's DF, you don't get to make the rules. You don't like it, there's other options.

I'm not forgetting that at all actually. If there aren't specific rules outside of what SE put forth how can you say it's NOT a speed run? There's a timer after all, shouldn't the timer imply you should be shooting for a record time? How can you possibly say this isn't a speed run when there's a timer RIGHT THERE!? I can go on like this forever. Look, you're flailing and I'm done.

[ispano]

I'm not forgetting that at all actually. If there aren't specific rules outside of what SE put forth how can you say it's NOT a speed run? There's a timer after all, shouldn't the timer imply you should be shooting for a record time? How can you possibly say this isn't a speed run when there's a timer RIGHT THERE!? I can go on like this forever. Look, you're flailing and I'm done.

But you are. I can say it's not a speed run because people want to experience the dungeon normally. You have no right to force them to run it YOUR way, nor can they force you to run it their way. So long as you refuse to look at other points of view and ACCEPT them as valid, even if you disagree, you're not getting anywhere.

[ispano]

-snip-

You keep forgetting that this is about DF runs, random runs. Runs that don't have specific rules outside of what SE has put forth. It's the same as people wanting to force speed runs in DF/Roulette runs of CM/Prae. It's DF, you don't get to make the rules. You don't like it, there's other options.