"Need" should check ilevel

[PiedPiper]

SnipySnip

Thing is, your arguments are also just as moralistic and circular. You have said "Person for whom it is an upgrade gets the most benefit because its an upgrade because upgrades are the most beneficial use of gear." You're also focusing entirely on the end result. The only thing that impacts who gets to roll on gear, in your opinion, is who it will benefit the most, where you have defined benefiting as improving stats. The question then, is what element actually does the work in the process of "earning" gear.


You have said that the need for stat improvement does this work. Yet, your need, or lack there of, does nothing to actually get you the chance to access loot. Needing heavy allagan gauntlets wont make a chest appear for me to take them out of. The only thing that can get me access to those gloves is winning the fight. Whether or not I need them, or any other piece from turn 4, has no impact on how many turn 4 chests I get to open, or what their contents will be. The only thing that "earns" me access to those chests is completing the fight.

The only way to win the fight, and "earn" gear, is to be on a team with 7 other people so I can zone in and have help killing the what ever.


You see, personal "need" for a piece will always be subjective. There is no universal, this thread has proven that, everyone disagrees and thinks there are different caveats. Not to mention, it is an inherently competitive system. There are only so many drops, and there are always fewer drops than party members. The only way for me to get what I want from a primal is for you, and everyone else on the team, to not get what they want.

Accordingly, we enter into a social contract with each other. We will play the game together, and work together to get the win, that way we get access to the drop or drops, all knowing that more people will lose than win. But we aren't angry when the blm wristelts drop and you wanted bard, at least not at the blm. They played and won just like you did to get that equal chance. Sometimes more than one person will want the same item. This is a reality of the game. If you don't want to play with people who might compete with you, then you're going to have to build your own groups and be very patient to get them filled.

What does the work for earning gear is the actual playing and winning. Everyone zoned in knowing their odds of gear, saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to roll against other for any set of reasons will just cause those people to not come in the first place.


The only exception to this is when a group forms and collectively agrees to its own set of loot rules beyond those built into the game. If everyone agrees to a set of loot rules in this fashion and then breaks them, of course they are wrong and should be punished.

[Worm]

I don't know what to tell you. The point of gear is to improve stats. This is just so obvious to me. It's like in the same way water is a life giving necessity. When someone takes water and washes their car, that's fine I guess. Though for that person to say "You can't prove to me that my use of water is any less important than stopping people from dying from thirst", I'd just be gobsmacked. That's the same thing I feel when I see these loot arguments where the 'win condition' for you is a game where people needing on gear to vendor it is just as valid as it going to someone who needs the stats and will be really happy with that gear. I don't want to have that kind of game nor do I want to play with those kinds of players.

Vendoring gear will never be as valid as a player using it. It's crazy to read all these arguments now because people wanted to shard/vendor gear in LFD runs. They're the same arguments when people were behaving this way in World of Warcraft and came up with these relativist arguments to explain themselves back then. Heck I still remember getting chided for rolling greed on a two handed sword in RFC because everyone on that server (Elune) would pass on every single item and then /roll for it.

EDIT: I guess you could say I believe players have a universal right to upgrade their gear, these games are just wider than the TOS. If you want to need on every drop in your High Level Duty Roulette for seals, hey whatever, but I still maintain that's what the GREED button is for and you're completely overlooking the way the system is intended to be used in favor of treating it like some kind of responsibility absolving god-machine. After all why can you even still greed when need is enabled for you? Certainly there's no reason to click greed if you can click need, after all ... greed is just a different kind of need isn't it?

[Mintyfresh]

Let me translate the OP's point for you:
"I want all the loots for myself. If you have more gear than me, that means you are meant to carry me to victory and shorten my queue times."

./facepalm
You can't fix stupid.
If that's how you perceive the OP's post, I kind of pity your coworkers and friends due to your innate ability to be totally illogical.

[Worm]

Not even the Producer of this game agrees with you on that.

Welp, okay? I'm still pretty sure gearing up is a major part of MMORPGs especially in ones with a Tiered Gear system and a focus on item level, and forgive me if the producer doesn't think increasing stats is important.

The primary thing a piece of gear does before anything else is raising stats. Appearance, what it vendors for, etc certainly are aspects of the gear as well but is that really the point of gear? Was gear put in the game for that reason? If you really believe gear wasn't added into this game to improve your stats and item level, fine. If you really believe there is literally no reason to click Greed or Pass when you have the ability to click Need, fine. But, I completely disagree with that.

[Mintyfresh]

In all honesty, in my opinion, this will happen in a game and there is no way to prevent it.

I highly doubt that they will write an algorithm to check the gear in your inventory, you class, you alternate jobs and compare it to someone else so as to implement this. It's more work and can introduce a ton of bugs.
When you play with 7 other individuals(especially pugs), please throw away the assumption of someone else caring about what you want and need out of the window.
The demographics of MMO's have changed and so have people's mentalities.

[darios]

Did the player contribute to beat the battlefield yes did the player spend his time and money to participate in that event YES!!!! So feel free cast lot in everything that you qualify for even a hp potion in my opinion. If I want a weapon or Armor I make group and lock items that I want if the party agreed to this terms the party goes. Normally when it comes to items I stick to my Ls people but I seen lots of parties that agree to loot locks

[L-D-Omlette]

All previous...

I assume in the simplest form what you mean is that while yes, anyone has a right to roll NEED when they can, it is a matter of courtesy to allow someone who needs a piece of gear for progression to roll over someone who is looking for vanity, GC Seals, gil, etc.

You aren't alone in this. Were you to present this in game, I imagine you would have many more people agreeing with you. I also suspect, were you to put this in the context of say, a particular person's FC, then more would probably agree that group needs are valued more than an individuals, and thus would provide a more tangible example of where a progressive upgrade would trump a vanity roll.

I highly doubt anyone that has contributed to this would say that me getting a drop for vanity is more important than another member of my static team getting an upgrade that would make completing content easier/faster. Likely, they would say that it makes sense for me to pass and let said member get the upgrade, then roll on the next one that comes around.

The unfortunate truth is that this same thinking doesn't apply when it comes to a random person.

[Worm]

I assume in the simplest form what you mean is that while yes, anyone has a right to roll NEED when they can, it is a matter of courtesy to allow someone who needs a piece of gear for progression to roll over someone who is looking for vanity, GC Seals, gil, etc.

I'd actually mince a little over the use of the word "right". The majority of arguments in response to me have been "Anything the game allows you to do is within your rights", I really don't think that qualifies as "rights", "I am able to do this" not "I have a right to do this". That's like saying you have the right to harass players until you get banned, since it really can't be proven you were violating the rights extended to you by Squaresoft until they actually pass the judgement and ban you. (What defines Harassment, etc, etc) You're mistaking the limits of the systems for how it's meant to be used. The choice is left to the player and there actually are wrong choices, like passing on gear you need or rolling on gear you have.

I highly doubt anyone that has contributed to this would say that me getting a drop for vanity is more important than another member of my static team getting an upgrade that would make completing content easier/faster. Likely, they would say that it makes sense for me to pass and let said member get the upgrade, then roll on the next one that comes around.

Well this is still framed in the sense of personal benefit. Do you really feel the only time you are required to pass on loot is when it can benefit a person who is duty bound to be part of a regular group you run in to down content? I don't know what else to describe this as but selfishness, I'm sorry.

The unfortunate truth is that this same thinking doesn't apply when it comes to a random person.

Gotta say here, don't see why not. You guys really are misreading a pretty well documented system. The simple fact that you cannot come up with a hypothetical reason someone who has Need selectable would choose Greed demonstrates that. If this system implied as much as you thought it did then Need being selectable would make Greed un-selectable.

There is no way anyone ever intended for someone who can equip a piece of gear to hit need and then turn that item into GC Seals. There is no way to explain how being able to equip a piece of gear gives you a greater right over all the other self motivated to convert that item into GC Seals. It's funny how the addition of class restrictions was generally to curb this behavior and now it's being used as some justification for it.

I never saw these style of arguments until the LFD system was implemented in WoW. If you joined a group and "Needed for DE" people would react badly, everyone innately understood what the point of the Need over Greed system was. When the actual consequences were removed only then did you see these kind of arguments. There have always been implied loot rules in these games and I don't think people generally had an issue with it. There were mechanisms to make sure people followed the rules. However since no one can get a bad reputation with these new Dungeon Queue systems it seems like people think it's not only an excuse to do whatever you want but further that there actually are no longer wrong actions, just a measure of what is or isn't beneficial to you.

You guys can have as many objectivity/subjectivity arguments as you want. I think it's pretty bad taste to roll on someone's upgrade to turn it into GC Seals, but if you guys want to state it can't be good or bad taste because good and bad taste are subjective and not objective, well whatever makes you happy. I guess I'll just hope you're making these arguments for academic purposes and don't behave this way.

[Caraway]

Hmm... Guess I'm just oldschool in thinking here that you only Need if it is an improvement for the class you're playing at the moment.

If it's for vanity or "just because I want it" you should Greed so that everyone has their fair chance of getting it for vanity/just because while if there's someone gets an actual progression for the work they did can get that chance.

I have always felt that the reason why Need is only made available when it's for something you yourself can wear (and not what one of your alt classes can wear) is because Need was set there because it's if you actually need it.

Hate to say it but you don't need vanity gear, you want it. And this is coming from someone who loves vanity gear and being able to customize their characters to look a certain way. Whereas this game does make it so that you do need that +3 to your stats because of the way the Duty Finder's implemented and the required iLVL for things.

[Langureion]

Pointless + facepalm + shurg = popcorn