"Need" should check ilevel

[Worm]

I have to say that I disagree with this. I'm in almost full myth, but I'm trying to collect the CT set for my level 50 Paladin. If you want guaranteed loot, I'd suggest running with your FC.

I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous. Especially given the way CT works you'd see your vanity roll in due time if you deferred to people who actually needed the up, since you'll have groups with no Pally and groups with a Paladin who rolls on the belt and spends his roll. It's sort of silly but you're probably very rarely actually taking gear someone needs by rolling for vanity in your situation, so I don't even know what you're defending. The hypothetical right to do this?

[Lemon8or]

I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous.

He probably means his Warrior is in full myth that his Paladin cannot use so he's gearing Paladin up in CT gears. As far as etiquette goes, it's hard to enforce such a rule on players. Sure.... eventually that vanity piece will come up but who to say not another undergeared tank needs it? Would you still pass that time even if the next time that piece might come up is in a couple months giving how many loots are stuffed in a box? I see no problem with a person rolling Need for vanity myself since if that's important to them, who to say it's not as valid as the person gearing up for the content? I usually greed if I have better gears regardless of if the other tank can use it or not just to give everyone a chance to gear their jobs up but some people have a different opinion.

[Worm]

He probably means his Warrior is in full myth that his Paladin cannot use so he's gearing Paladin up in CT gears.

Except if he means this there's really no problem because he's either greeding on the gear or needing it on an alt who actually does need the gear. I'm not so far gone to suggest people apply mains>alts to duty finder raids but mains>seals or mains>vanity, yes, I think that. I just figured he wouldn't be in such a rush to disprove the OP that he provided an example that really no one would have a problem with.

With regards to the rest of your post, I just generally disagree, I comprehend the arguments but I think if you want the gear for vanity or any other trivial purpose then you should defer. Also I don't want to mince about what's trivial and not. There's a primary purpose for gear, and that's to increase stats. I love vanity but I truly believe all uses for gear are secondary to increasing someone's stats, especially in a tiered system where there is an overt amount of focus placed on stats. If you want to lower the ilvl requirement on your next PF group or not get upset if you die a few times on Haukke HM then you're at least being consistent. Though it just seems like there are a lot of people who expect people to be geared and I imagine they overlap with the people needing Ifrit Axes because they look cool.

Once you place your vanity over someone's gear you lose all right to expect people to be geared.

edit: I will put in the caveat that most of this gear isn't anything near BiS, CT loot can be replaced by badge gear (Right?) and HM primal weapons aren't better than relics (Right?), so it's not like I think it's some grand insult to need on this gear, however I do generally disagree with it on principle. I don't think it's a horrible thing to do or that the loot system needs to be rewritten to stop it, but I'm not going to say that person has an equal right to the gear, because I don't think they do.

[Versiroth]

I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous. Especially given the way CT works you'd see your vanity roll in due time if you deferred to people who actually needed the up, since you'll have groups with no Pally and groups with a Paladin who rolls on the belt and spends his roll. It's sort of silly but you're probably very rarely actually taking gear someone needs by rolling for vanity in your situation, so I don't even know what you're defending. The hypothetical right to do this?

No, my Warrior is in almost full myth and I first started CT to get my Paladin gear. My Paladin now has three pieces and his relic, so I mostly tank CT with him now, but the point is, it was either run CT as an under geared Paladin or run with my Warrior, who didn't need most of the gear.

So, I'm defending the fact that I won the CT chest piece on my Warrior, who at the time had a myth chest piece. I didn't do it for vanity so much as I was trying to gear one of my other jobs due to all of my myth being spent on my Warrior. Also, the thread title says that need rolls need an ilvl requirement. I took that to mean that people who out gear the drop shouldn't be able to need on it. And again, I disagree.

[Worm]

No, my Warrior is in almost full myth and I first started CT to get my Paladin gear. My Paladin now has three pieces and his relic, so I mostly tank CT with him now, but the point is, it was either run CT as an under geared Paladin or run with my Warrior, who didn't need most of the gear.

So, I'm defending the fact that I won the CT chest piece on my Warrior, who at the time had a myth chest piece. I didn't do it for vanity so much as I was trying to gear one of my other jobs due to all of my myth being spent on my Warrior.

Oh I'm just mistaken about how CT's tank pieces work. Anyway I want to restate that I don't think it's very terribly bad in CT or HM Primals since there are reasonably easy to obtain alternatives, except the relic which can be pretty frustrating depending on your situation. Though I just disagree with the idea that all reasons for hitting need are created equal, I don't.

Stating that you think something is morally wrong and that something IS morally wrong are two very different things. I don't think anyone would have an issue with anything you said if you stated everything was simply opinion and wasn't presented as facts.

And you disagree? Okay, cool. Duly noted.

Eh do I really have to prefix all opinion with IMO? Isn't it enough I'm not on a mountaintop with two tablets? This is going to sound egotistical, but I mean it when I say I think it just comes off like I'm stating facts simply because my arguments are good. I have this opinion for reasons, and I state my reasons. Maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier in the thread but "we can't call the cops" was meant to state that I didn't think there was some universal moral law you're violating with this behavior.

This statement contradicts everything you've been arguing. So I'm full i90 with a relic.. but if I switch my relic to a GC weapon before entering the fight, it's then okay to roll need on the weapon? What's the difference besides the i90 weapon actually helping us beat the fight easier.

It wouldn't be okay because you don't need it. If you deleted your relic and couldn't recover it? You're taking these examples to their breaking points. I don't know what to tell you, you come out for me stating my opinion as fact, then you try to poke logical inconsistencies to prove my opinion doesn't meet factual standards, who's contradicting themselves again? I can't tell.

[Versiroth]

Though I just disagree with the idea that all reasons for hitting need are created equal, I don't.

The only time I normally need for vanity is when I'm specifically trying to win certain pieces. For instance, I want the Foestrikers set on my Bard. From level 15 to 21, I've been spamming the first three dungeons and I've won all but the gloves. Technically, a level 15 Monk could use the gloves more than my level 21 Bard, but if they drop, I'm needing. If the other person wins, great. This is the same with the primals. If I'm trying to get the Garuda sword for vanity on my Paladin, I'm not going to pass just because there's a Paladin in the group with a GC weapon. Otherwise, other than to help FC mates, what's the point in ever doing these fights again?

[Noahlimits]

It wouldn't be okay because you don't need it. If you deleted your relic and couldn't recover it? You're taking these examples to their breaking points. I don't know what to tell you, you come out for me stating my opinion as fact, then you try to poke logical inconsistencies to prove my opinion doesn't meet factual standards, who's contradicting themselves again? I can't tell.

My reply was based on what YOU said. When I asked if a full i90 switched to GC for the fight, you stated that would be acceptable. It didn't make sense why you would find that acceptable, or maybe you just misread or understood what I initially asked.