"Need" should check ilevel

[Worm]

Appeal to authority and back pedaling to act like anyone was just defending vanity alone, you're defending any kind of spiteful needing. So we've went from "Everything is relative", "That's like just your opinion", and finally "Square wants me to need on vanity gear". These are actually getting worse not better, you know that right?

Every argument you make and the entire mindset you sponsor is one where anyone can roll need on any piece of gear for any reason. Hey if SE didn't want me to need on all these items and turn them into GC Seals why can I? Hey if SE didn't want me to roll on gear and discard it to spite another player why can I? It's just nonsense.

Look no one is required to do anything, I think we know that. Though do you really think needing on gear for seals or to just discard out of spite can't be called 'bad'? You guys were the ones who (after tons of out of the box thinking) went with the premise of "any time you roll need on gear it's perfectly okay no matter why you want it", I can't blame you for wanting to back off that premise, but you have to move your argument somewhere else and "Square wants me to roll need for vanity" is just silly.

edit: I mean what Square says really is very off base since we're not even talking about specific examples, we're talking in general. I mean what are you implying? That it's not okay to roll need for vanity on the gear that SE didn't make with vanity in mind? All that gear is made with vanity in mind just as much as any other gear in any other game. This is completely beside the point. I'm saying there are times when you shouldn't need you're saying there aren't times when you shouldn't need, except with a pre-formed group with pre-stated loot rules. That's all there is here.

[Maku]

snip

Personally I greed on anything simply for getting GC seals. That aside. Needing something for vanity purposes or even for GC seals is not spiteful in anyway. You do indeed need the item for something. You seem to be grouping the previous two situations with people who need just to toss the item to be spiteful. Do those kind of people actually exist? If they actually exist or not beside the point doing this is indeed spiteful but the previous two are not spiteful at all.

Someone mentioned helping people out in DF so that they may help you out later. Seriously? Thousands of people play this game and in the DF Server Groups you are highly unlikely to ever run into the same person again so that is a totally mutt point.

Totally random groups have no set rules. Aside from being a total dick and and lotting simply to toss gear (which is totally different then turning things in to GC seals).

[Worm]

By your rules, vanity players can't get rewards if they group with progression players.

Your loot system has no answer for segregation, other than appealing to community building. I think maybe I disagree that helping people progress is the only way to build community. I do a lot of DF, and DR. I'm friendly, explain tactics, make jokes, even though I'm probably not going to see them again. It's great if they progress, but I want to achieve my goals, too.

Denying loot to geared players discourages players mixing. Mixing and giving everyone rewards builds community, not telling some people to form their own groups.

You feel strongly about this, but I'm not convinced you have a system that works. Is your idea more advanced than "You should give people progression gear. If that prevents you from achieving your goals and discourages you from mixing, too bad. Sorry that you can't get the stuff you want but maybe someday everyone will be geared and you'll get a chance."?

I feel like you might be mistaking me for the OP, I don't want another loot system. I mean if you're so affable with everyone in DF and DR do you think mentioning at the beginning of a run you want to need on items for vanity purposes would go over so poorly? I'm not saying people can't need for vanity, I'm saying that the argument of "Of course people can need for vanity, actually it's their right to need ... for any reason!" is a bad way to justify vanity rolling.

You keep forgetting that this is about DF runs, random runs. Runs that don't have specific rules outside of what SE has put forth. It's the same as people wanting to force speed runs in DF/Roulette runs of CM/Prae. It's DF, you don't get to make the rules. You don't like it, there's other options.

I'm not forgetting that at all actually. If there aren't specific rules outside of what SE put forth how can you say it's NOT a speed run? There's a timer after all, shouldn't the timer imply you should be shooting for a record time? How can you possibly say this isn't a speed run when there's a timer RIGHT THERE!? I can go on like this forever. Look, you're flailing and I'm done.

[ispano]

I'm not forgetting that at all actually. If there aren't specific rules outside of what SE put forth how can you say it's NOT a speed run? There's a timer after all, shouldn't the timer imply you should be shooting for a record time? How can you possibly say this isn't a speed run when there's a timer RIGHT THERE!? I can go on like this forever. Look, you're flailing and I'm done.

But you are. I can say it's not a speed run because people want to experience the dungeon normally. You have no right to force them to run it YOUR way, nor can they force you to run it their way. So long as you refuse to look at other points of view and ACCEPT them as valid, even if you disagree, you're not getting anywhere.

[ispano]

-snip-

You keep forgetting that this is about DF runs, random runs. Runs that don't have specific rules outside of what SE has put forth. It's the same as people wanting to force speed runs in DF/Roulette runs of CM/Prae. It's DF, you don't get to make the rules. You don't like it, there's other options.

[Worm]

Eh I greed for seals as well, if I'm doing hard modes I try to remember to ask if someone is greeding for OS, but I'd imagine most people would bring it up. I mean if you don't think rolling need for seals is incorrect why don't you do it? If you want to get some seals out of your dungeon run, that's what the greed option is there for. You don't deserve free seals because a lot of gear only you can need on drops ... how else can I explain this?

Anyway it depends on the situation but if you say that it is always okay to click need on any item you can despite the reason then you are defending a whole load of various actions from petty to spiteful. One poster in this thread brought up needing something for vanity, but said the other person didn't deserve the gear anyway, what is that if not spite? It's certainly disrespectful if nothing else. Needing for seals is more petty than anything else, you're taking a significant benefit for someone who would equip that gear and then turning it into a miniscule benefit for yourself. Why would you do something like that? Do you all have such low standards of behavior that you'd shrug off that happening with regards to a piece of gear you wanted?

[IndigoHawk]

By your rules, vanity players can't get rewards if they group with progression players.

Your loot system has no answer for segregation, other than appealing to community building. I think maybe I disagree that helping people progress is the only way to build community. I do a lot of DF, and DR. I'm friendly, explain tactics, make jokes, even though I'm probably not going to see them again. It's great if they progress, but I want to achieve my goals, too.

Denying loot to geared players discourages players mixing. Mixing and giving everyone rewards builds community, not telling some people to form their own groups.

You feel strongly about this, but I'm not convinced you have a system that works. Is your idea more advanced than "You should give people progression gear. If that prevents you from achieving your goals and discourages you from mixing, too bad. Sorry that you can't get the stuff you want but maybe someday everyone will be geared and you'll get a chance."?

[IndigoHawk]

So ... you're pretty much just arguing semantics, but don't have an idea on how the system would be fair to both geared and undergeared players who have different goals for loot. You basically just want to make a minor point that people shouldn't justify needing for vanity by saying that there are no set rules around needing.

Sorry for taking you seriously.

[Worm]

So ... you're pretty much just arguing semantics, but don't have an idea on how the system would be fair to both geared and undergeared players who have different goals for loot. You basically just want to make a minor point that people shouldn't justify needing for vanity by saying that there are no set rules around needing.

Sorry for taking you seriously.

Well you're sure to be taken seriously, slipping in that snide remark in response to being politely told you mixed my posts up with someone else because you didn't read the thread carefully enough. I guess in the future I'll endeavor to stay on whatever topic you've mistakenly assigned to me.

[kayuwoody]

Hi Worm, you've convinced me. I now agree that rolling against someone else who would benefit more from the in game stats of a piece of gear would be a selfish act. But I am not yet convinced that being selfish is wrong in this case.

Like someone else stated, the only way things would work if you had your way is if people are segregated based on their gear levels.

You're basically spouting communism. Let the haves, help out the have nots. This is a beautiful ideal, but doesn't work in reality.
I'll use an analogy, I know it's skewed: In the country of Worm, Peasant A is a gambling addict who spends his income on alcohol and gambles the rest away. As a result Peasant A is constantly low on cash for necessities, like food for his 3 starving children. Peasant B is a hard working upstanding member. They both are assigned by their employer to go plough field 453. While plowing the field, they stumble across a hidden cache of cash. You would have me believe Peasant B should give Peasant A more of the cash because he "needs it more".

The problem is this is a MMO of strangers. I don't know the guy in my dutyfinder from Jack. I don't know why he has lousier gear than me. Maybe he has 8 other classes he splits his time on, whereas I only have this one so I seem to be better geared. I have no loyalty to him. Why shouldn't I be selfish? If I am in a dungeon for a specific piece of gear even if it's just vanity, how is my time spent running the dungeon any less valuable from the strangers in the dungeon with me? If anything, we have worked together to get to the loot chest, and I may possibly have contributed to a quicker more efficient run then they would have had without me. I on the other hand, probably used more time than I would have had to if the whole party was at my gear level.
Should I just drop the party the moment I see someone else has a greater "need" than mine? Bear in mind, this is also, a game.