"Need" should check ilevel

[Worm]

100% agree. I was merely trying to provide an example of why not rolling NEED is better for the group. I would hope that could then extrapolated to apply to the community as a whole. Perhaps I am wrong in this, or I should find a better example.

I mean I really don't know that we have to prove benefit, it's nice to be important, but important to be nice. However even behavior in DF does improve the community, if you can do nice things, explain fights, be social, be friendly those people are generally going to probably be more likely to behave in that way. I guess I understand the line of thinking where you can't possibly make things better, so there's no reason to try. Though I tend to feel people leave a positive group happier than they went in, so it doesn't matter if you improve the community really, as long as you and everyone else is leaving a little happier.

In all honesty, I'm on your side in this, the person that would have a greater benefit from a drop should get it. I have yet to get every piece of the Infantry set or the Foestriker set for this very reason.

Ah sorry if I was too harsh, you just steered me in the right direction and I really wanted to hammer it in. I understand what you're saying about the Foestriker I actually got lucky and got quite a bit of it while I was new to the game. I don't really have an experience of having this limitation while low level vanity hunting since I generally would solo dungeons in WoW. Maybe just try asking the group before the run begins or something like that? I can understand even feeling weird doing that though.

Hmm... Guess I'm just oldschool in thinking here that you only Need if it is an improvement for the class you're playing at the moment.

I just have to accept I don't understand the new school.

[ispano]

I just have to accept I don't understand the new school.

It's more of a refusal to understand. Not having the ability to understand is usually caused by mental deficiencies or not having knowledge of the particular subject(Usually complex subjects however). You place a certain priority on certain things, and if someone else has different priorities, you claim you can't understand because it's not the same as your priorities. You disagree, but use the phrase "I don't understand" which tries(Even if you don't realize it) to make the other person's view look worse than yours.

People all want the item for various reasons. If the person can roll need, they have the right to roll need. Disagree or not, dislike or not, that's how the system works.

[IndigoHawk]

How often do you think a vanity player should gear up progression players with no rewards?
How often is it ok for a vanity player to decide they're sick of not getting rewards and drop the group if they notice someone is undergeared?
Should undergeared players group together, and overgeared players group together, so that everyone in each group has the right to earn rewards for the dungeon run?

The "problem" only happens when geared people mix with undergeared people. Do you think the community should segregate so that everyone can roll on gear?

I think it's better to the mix geared and undergeared, and reward each by letting them need for progress or vanity. Undergeared players get powerful teammates while earning rewards, and geared players can help others while earning rewards. Both can run the dungeon again if they don't get what they want, and the community intermingles, instead of segregating.

[Worm]

People all want the item for various reasons. If the person can roll need, they have the right to roll need. Disagree or not, dislike or not, that's how the system works.

Again if you're going to put so much focus on what buttons are highlighted. Then why does the Greed button stay clickable? You literally cannot tell me "Everyone should roll Need no matter why they want the item" while ignoring a button which is separate from Need and serves a different purpose. That Greed button must be for something right? Since we can only work in the wildly narrow framework of what we can click and can't click, then there has to be a reason that button is clickable. It can't be for fun, there has to be some kind of thing you want to do with that loot that doesn't qualify as Need. Everything isn't 'needed' it's blatantly obvious in your own narrow example. So even in the cherry picked argument of "Well if I can click Need it must be within my rights", we have to ask what is Greed for? You're saying it's for nothing, just ignore it, please don't poke holes in my justification. If you're actually going to respond here please explain why you can't obtain multiples of this gear, wouldn't the designers want you to be able to roll Need to get gear to turn into Materia and extra seals? Why should you be prevented from rolling on gear you already possess since being able to equip the gear is where your right to possess it begins and stops. It seems like a huge oversight!

However you are right about one thing, I was trying to be polite, but your view is worse than mine. I can't possibly understand having such a poor opinion nor using it to justify some really bad behavior. It's self-serving and poorly thought out. The end results justify any behavior and something innocuous like rolling for vanity is somehow supposed to be the moral equivalent of breaking down an item someone wants out of spite. I don't understand how you let me keep changing the narrative to this. You all are basically defending a guy who sees an undergeared player of the same class and rolls on gear he needs out of pure spite. How can you not differentiate a player acting out of spite and ill will from someone who wants to play dress up? It's amazing.

The best you guys have in this thread is "Everything is subjective" and "Well that's just your opinion, man" you guys can't go beyond this because either you don't believe in what you're saying(I don't blame you) or haven't actually thought about it. I guess it makes sense since it's a view that popped into existence only to justify bad behavior in World of Warcraft groups and a view/behavior which actually caused restrictions on what you could need to be implemented. The actual reason your Need rolls are restricted was a direct response to the bad behavior you're defending. In the end all you can do is gathering around some loot system like it's the Monolith from Space Odyssey.

The hilarious part of seeing so much work put into defending bad behavior is that this really isn't even a huge issue with the way loot works in this game, all Primal HM and CT gear is basically skippable. It's just that you guys want to insist this is somehow not bad behavior, and I don't know if it's so you can feel less guilty about doing it or if you want to defend yourself the few times you fall back on it. Who knows, maybe I'm the terrible person to need these complex set of rules to make me behave and you actually rarely behave in the manner which you're defending. However regardless of how this line of thinking manifests itself in this game, I still feel compelled to challenge it.

EDIT: Actually I don't think I should follow up even if there is a well thought out response to this. This is behavior I've viewed as completely unacceptable as far back as 2009 and I had all these arguments with people back then. They were strangely all the same, people justifying a wide range of bad behavior but rarely expounding on whether they behaved that way or not. I still feel the same way, that's all there is to it. I don't think there's anyway to justify it and people certainly shouldn't do it. Justifying a ton of worse behavior to make an argument where you can need on vanity gear is silly and unneeded. Most people would defer if you just asked politely.

How often is it ok for a vanity player to decide they're sick of not getting rewards and drop the group if they notice someone is undergeared?

Well that group had no preset rules so of course it's okay, at least to you, right? Once you say it's totally justified to roll Need on a piece of gear for the sole purpose of destroying it (Remember this whole thread vanity=seals=upgrade, it's all equal), you cause a break down that literally justifies all behavior no matter how spiteful, petty, or mean. The only wrong behaviors are exploiting and as long as nothing else violates some pre-arranged rules in a party it's perfectly acceptable behavior.

[ispano]

-snip-

I've thought about it plenty. Games like this are designed to appeal to more than one group, more than just the progression minded. If someone trying to get an item for vanity, which is a valid reason from SE themselves, has missed out on that item 10 different times. Should they should be required to pass to someone who is there for the first time, just because it's a stat upgrade? No. You are the one that needs to think about it and get your head out of the box.

It's not bad behavior, telling people their view on what they should be allowed to roll on is wrong, when SE says otherwise, is the bad behavior. SE MADE many of these items with vanity in mind.

[ImDingDing]

So people who have progress faster doesn't have the same right to loot? Then why will they come back to help some unknow to beat Ifrit HM again?
And in CT you will see all players with ilv55 SB to get a better chance on loot, do you want to wipe again and again with 24 players who either is new or in full SB gears?

lol

[Caraway]

Then why will they come back to help some unknow to beat Ifrit HM again?

To... Help... People? So that the person can learn, progress to the next stage and maybe end up helping them? Or helping someone else in turn down the road?

Building a community seems to be lost on MMO players these days.

[ImDingDing]

To... Help... People? So that the person can learn, progress to the next stage and maybe end up helping them? Or helping someone else in turn down the road?

Building a community seems to be lost on MMO players these days.

I have no problem on helping people to pass content which block them or building the community, but why do you expect people to do it for free (even worse, for knowing that they are guaranteed not to get any reward)? The one who get carried will get their relic at the end of the day and they should pass loot to the those who helpped them. If they want that reward, well, come back to help others with their relic and beat the content for real next time. This is called building community.

[Caraway]

I have no problem on helping people to pass content which block them or building the community, but why do you expect people to do it for free (even worse, for knowing that they are guaranteed not to get any reward)? The one who get carried will get their relic at the end of the day and they should pass loot to the those who helpped them. If they want that reward, well, come back to help others with their relic and beat the content for real next time. This is called building community.

I don't believe they shouldn't get some sort of compensation but I'm pretty sure doing pretty much every piece of content that a 50 is going to be in these days does that in the form of Philosophy or Mythology tokens.

That said, I do think there's a problem with the loot system in this game in that you only ever end up having one item dropping from a chest/boss.

[Impurrrsive]

actually i done this once in CT, my WHM in AF+1, i need the robe for my SCH
i think i need that :O