Summoner / Scholar, In Math and Practice

[SokoSplat]

@exolithus:
potency was: 13.3~ (non RS) 16 (rs). As this is the best DOT damage skill the benefit applied follows less with the other dots. a total of 9ish potency benefit for 20 seconds with all 3 dots. On the other hand CS is giving you a benefit of 10% over 100% of the time vs RS giving you 20% 1/9th of the time [180s recast, duration 20s]) so the benefit on potency is weighted toward the class with CS and not RS. We ignored to give SMN the benefit of the doubt...

ED returns 50% of damage dealt rather than cost mana: 266 for me x3)
Aero requires mana (106 per cast. for 1 min 3 casts so 318).
In the end, you return 480 after subtracting aero cost. so my premise 'and you get mana back' is correct 100%.

Aero is a dot, it costs you 1 GCD per cast (18s) in your rotation. for giggles lets give the SMN +3 rune IIs (5.3 potency/sec over the 60s window) which will still put us under potency aero/ED combo.

[Exolithus]

Remember, Bio II runs for 45 Seconds, Miasma for 39 Seconds and Bio I for 37 Seconds because of Contagion

RS Buff will apply to the full duration of the debuffs. Count in Shadowflare (again with RS) and you can Fester 2 times while RS is running...this is more than just 3 dps

for giggles: dont just give the smn ruin II, there is still a pet wich attacks with 100 potency.

you still ignore the pet wich is (hey we are a SUMMONER) still a pretty big pool of our dmg

If you really want to see the true dmg then campare both classes played by non brainafkfatezombies, then you will see that SMN outdps a SCH by far

[SokoSplat]

@T0rin:
Hotkey toggle (and mouse click) takes a 1.2 second shift before skills can be cast after button pushed (timed using py script to detect pixel changes after keystroke on 3 separate machines).
Contagion won't autocast on something that has 0 dots.

I might have misread, but after testing, short of the pet casting aerial slash there is 0 difference in DPS (shockwave doesn't cast unless mob is in melee range like expected). There is a -10 potency drop from aerial slash and a .3 second delay from AS -> wind slash after cast.
Timing on contagion is perfect (with 1.6 seconds to spare) for dots to fully apply on first, and second rotation sets (probably the same for 3+) If pet isn't ordered to attack right before first do application there is a 5-6 second free period.
Conclusion: a minor loss in potency (AS -10 pot every 29.22 seconds) is not as detrimental as you make it sound.

[SokoSplat]

@Exolithus:
I'm not ignoring the pet, I've added it up a few dozen times so far :P. The SCH DPS is on par with the SMN (not the SMN + pet).
I agree on SMN + PET vs SCH that SMN wins (by a margin to me, but still wins).

That's kinda the point... The rotations are identical except a few extra GCDs. Ruin II was brought because we require an insta on the GCD (to comp aero). And the festers are already being consumed (in turn with the ED) thus we use ruin II.

Lets jump over to ACN. I think we've beaten the SCH thing into the ground enough for one day .
ACN maintains nearly the same skills (including contagion and all cross class like RS) so the reoccurring contagion/RS argument becomes invalid.
They have an equiv DPS pet with only -10 on the damage, have access to 10 cross class including 2 additional really good buffs (IR+B4B) and an extra dot (that contagion works with) 'Aero'.
All for sacrificing Fester, Spur (still have rouse), and enkindle.

Tmw imam break down the benefits of spur, maybe that puts smn over acn

[Exolithus]

You dont want to understand it dont you?
you DONT want Garuda to use Contagion if you have raging strikes ready 10 seconds after

[T0rin]

@T0rin:
Hotkey toggle (and mouse click) takes a 1.2 second shift before skills can be cast after button pushed (timed using py script to detect pixel changes after keystroke on 3 separate machines).

What? If I have Garuda on Obey and Steady, she takes less than a second to register my mouse click and cast Contagion. Are you talking about your personal lag?

Contagion won't autocast on something that has 0 dots.

I might have misread, but after testing, short of the pet casting aerial slash there is 0 difference in DPS (shockwave doesn't cast unless mob is in melee range like expected). There is a -10 potency drop from aerial slash and a .3 second delay from AS -> wind slash after cast.
Timing on contagion is perfect (with 1.6 seconds to spare) for dots to fully apply on first, and second rotation sets (probably the same for 3+) If pet isn't ordered to attack right before first do application there is a 5-6 second free period.
Conclusion: a minor loss in potency (AS -10 pot every 29.22 seconds) is not as detrimental as you make it sound.

Your math aside, which I think is atrocious, here is some real world proof taken about 5 minutes ago.

Garuda on Obey: http://i.imgur.com/LV2D0XU.jpg


Garuda on Sic: http://i.imgur.com/MpC1qpc.jpg


8 DPS difference.

Also, if you look at my screenshots, you will see that Contagion is on CD, while I sat there for 5-10 minutes letting Garuda wail away on the striking dummy. She _WILL_ cast Contagion against a target with no DoTs.

Leaving the effectiveness up to properly timing the casting of DoTs to line up perfect with Sic AI and the Contagion cooldown is about as folly as I can imagine. If you have to stop casting to dodge mechanics (i.e. first line on Extreme Titan), you could miss a spell entirely. You should also be fitting in Miasma II, which will fit in _ONLY_ if you are completely uninterrupted after you start casting. If you stop to do _anything_ after Garuda starts her Sic loop (Wind Blade, Aerial Blast, Contagion), you'll miss it.

Losing 8 DPS is as detrimental as it sounds.

[SokoSplat]

I do want to understand. I guess I'm just missing something?
If RS was ready in 10 sec (btw /recast is awesome figured that out like a week ago and am still super happy with it :P) and I was going to contagion I would just do what I said I did in the VERY beginning (change ruda to obey, cast my dots, change ruda back to Sic). Obey to sic (and vice versa) does not have a direct impact on the pet internal timers vs other tactics like button mashing or (what I just learned a few moments ago) guard->steady.

How does this not yield the exact result?

[Sol_Aureus]

Well if you really want to test this out once and for all, I noticed that we're on the same server and I'm a main SMN with a plethora of gear. If you'd like, i get home from work at about 5:30pm PST, and we could match iLVL and test it out on striking dummies as a base test of ideal conditions.

[T0rin]

I do want to understand. I guess I'm just missing something?
If RS was ready in 10 sec (btw /recast is awesome figured that out like a week ago and am still super happy with it :P) and I was going to contagion I would just do what I said I did in the VERY beginning (change ruda to obey, cast my dots, change ruda back to Sic). Obey to sic (and vice versa) does not have a direct impact on the pet internal timers vs other tactics like button mashing or (what I just learned a few moments ago) guard->steady.

How does this not yield the exact result?

Sic is a DPS loss. That is how it does not yield the exact same result. Yes, you can keep it on Sic, change it to Obey (with or without Steady) and manually fire off Contagion. But it doesn't change the fact that Sic is a flat out DPS loss. There is no reason, ever, to keep Garuda on Sic. Unless of course, manually pressing 1-5 buttons to 'micro' Garuda every minute is simply too much to handle.

[SokoSplat]

@T0rin:
What ilevel is your gear? (if you're around 85-90 then it'd be within the range mentioned earlier with the +10 from 64).

I just went to coerthas and started hitting the left side dummies, no contagion casts there either (was in MD killing gigas, lightnings, snakes). If I drop a bio 1 on it then it casts a few seconds (between 1-3 wind blades).
Anyone else have agro on it maybe? (Also, was shockwave casting at all?)
http://sollabs.net/media/xiv/castplz.jpg

As for stopping casting, I just bind to g (sic) and shift +g (obey), if I need to run to dodge, sprint(f)[makes me laugh every time I type it] and pet obey are within the same hand gesture. The timing doesn't have to line up 100% (15 sec is 15 sec regardless of if the dot is at 3 seconds or full cast) as long as all the dots are on it (at least in my mind).

Time to load up that parser maybe it can reveal something I'm not seeing regarding obey vs sic.