[Discussion] How do you define a fun boss fight?

[Lumiin]

Stuff that you can't dodge, that you just have to heal through and burn it down.
Bosses that can't be slept or stunned, that's just way too easy.

One of my favorite bosses from another game would spawn elite adds AND turn you into a chicken lol.

[myahele]

I like fights with some type of puzzle mechanics, especially if the rest of the crew can join in.

Kinda like how some of the guildhests work. Like halatali, brayflox, qarn,and haukke manor easy mode.

A good fight shouldn't be about unavoidable aoes.

[Teleniel]

I think fun boss fights make you think about the fight in a unique way.
The Arena itself is a part of the fight, not just in this is safe or dangerous, but both you/your team and the boss can interact with it.
Modes or phases might be scripted, or just single devastating moves telegraphed but the entire fight isn't a monotonous plod.
I know I can turn off the AoE ground markings, but I feel a good boss fight will make use of this sometimes, and not others.

I like to think Hydra is a good example of a fight which balances shown and telegraphed moves (Fire / Ice fields, Fear Itself) with 'spontaneous' ones (White Breath, Radiant Breath, Mean Thrash, Triumvirate) and Phases (add spawns)
Chimera is a fight that (if you don't 'cheat' and drag it on the hill) makes you plan interrupt abilities.
Coincounter (Aurum Vale) is a very good unscripted fight which uses mechanics you don't see often.
Baatral (Dzemal Darkhold) uses phases and a minor enrage mechanic very well
Teratotar (Qarn) changes the battlefield and uses adds well
Adjudicator (Qarn) has well scripted adds, that make sure to keep a party cohesive.


I think if I could design a fight for an 8 man instance it would use bits from each of these.
The boss would have 1 major mechanic. Every minute there would be a stoneskin which could only be broken by a specific type of damage (Slashing, Blunt, Piercing, Magical) this would be chosen at random. If the Stoneskin was not broken when it's type came up again the boss would gain a 5min damage+ buff.
2 Adds would spawn every few minutes around the arena. They would fall into Caster, Melee, Healer or Tank roles. The Caster would use AoE attacks on the field (not specifically targeting a player), the Healer would focus on supporting it's allies (Stoneskin, Cure), the Tank would cause pulse damage around himself, and the Melee would perform attacks that caused status ailments along with medium damage.
The field would begin fairly open but throughout the fight rocks will fall. These would break Line of Sight (and shunt players/enemies when they fell if needed). These could be targeted by players as well as would be damaged by enemy attacks that connected with them.

The boss would have an attack sequence which would include single target attacks on the tank, occasional *mitigated cleave* burst area attacks, frontal and rear cones. The boss would have a forward facing but would not necessarily require itself to be facing the tank to attack (however in an enrage situation it would turn and face/focus the tank with higher priority).

I would like to see this fight be planned at 15min for the appropriate gear score, and potentially completed in 10 with above average skill/equipment. I would like to think this kind of a setup would balance out the unfriendliness to melee vs. ranged allowing them to share the MT's damage from the boss to make some healing easier with HoT affects, and providing ranged LOS issues.... while still making melee potentially break off to engage adds, although not forcing them to potentially break combat and lose buffs to do so.





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Things I do NOT like in a boss fight:
unrecoverable-mechanics. I don't mind if you can get 1 shot by something (that you could avoid or should out-gear when wearing the proper equipment), but Titan's Landslide that takes out out of the arena is just not something I'm generally ok with. I would prefer if there was a 'far side ledge' where your body was dead, the healer could reach it but only from the VERY edge of the platform to get you back in the fight. Ooops you killed the spiny plume too early, time to start over (wish it just spawned a new one when the first died, but killing it caused it to spread 1 stack of debuff to everyone!)

totally-by passable-mechanics. I'm not going to say I hate the Enrage method in T2, or just skipping slimes and dealing with Cad's extra damage and burning him faster in T1... but I don't feel those should be an option in the fight. Kill ADS *just* after enrage and you didn't wipe? sure great I'm happy it's not a reset button.

one-trick ponies. Tonberry king is a good example here. He only has 1 attack that does significant damage, and that's Everyone's Grudge. Not only that but it's a SUPER telegraphed attack, along with being totally manageable with when it will occur (when you kill the adds). This is something for a mid-boss not for an end-boss.


I know it just put up a wall, but I really do feel that while we won't see 30~60min continuous fights in ARR like some people know and remember from the past, I believe that the system can still support a much more varied and dynamic fight than we currently see.

[Oscillate_Wildly]

Long enough with several mechanics that keep everyone moving. An even spread of AoE near the melee and the ranged fighters/healers so everyone is equally useful.

Too often one death or dc means a wipe if there isn't enough dps, or if one healer is down, with no time to raise a person. Accidents happen. ADS for example, you can miss a silence and often you'll make it out just fine. Since its impossible to distinguish player error and connection error, we can't say which happens more. I know that I've DC'd a few times in coil pre-LB and usually someone is alive to take care of it, so it should never be down to one character to win it all at the end.

Bosses that allow for stuns from silences and stuns.

And I second on the learn the fight vs. get a better internet connection point. Take the skeleton bone dragon fight in CT. That is a fun fight that takes some coordination and getting used to, as well as the rot mechanic in coil. Neither involve really watching telegraphs on the floor that take time to get to your client, but people still have issue with it regardless. Those fights can be both difficult or fun depending on the party make up and player skill.
Fights like Titan on the other hand involve running out of AoE that might hiccup server side or client side and make the fight more difficult even if you know it by heart, just because your internet is choking.

[KamikazeMan]

1. He has to look really cool
2. It has to take place in a cool looking location. "cool looking" means a nice atmosphere and great art direction. It doesn't necessarily have to look over the top.
3. It has to have fun mechanics. I think Titan is a VERY fun boss, though the mechanics are on a tight rotation so after a few tries, the fight becomes way too predictable.
4. It can't be too easy....it should be challenging so winning feels like an accomplishment of sorts.

[Francisco]

Titan (HM) is pretty close to being fun for me, but Landslide kind of ruins it for me. I think it would be much better if...

- Landslide knocks you off, you are taken to 1 HP.

- After recovering enough HP, waves of 1-2 mobs will spawn, which you need to kill off by yourself. If you fail, you are out. If you win, you can teleport back into the battle field.

- Upon teleporting in, you will have a brief period of immunity, in case you get placed into Landslide/WotL.

Other than that, I think Titan (HM) has a great mix of dodging/DPS check/music/overall kick-assedness. Extreme mode Titan doesn't even look like something I'd want to attempt, at all... ever.

The Copperbell (HM) bosses are pretty fun, and I enjoy Ash from Haukke (HM) - although his blue spinner things he leaves on the floor are annoying as hell.

I kind of like KB from CT, but that fight can range anywhere from "a ton of fun" to "a frickin' nightmare", depending on your group. Acheron is pretty fun as well.

[Francisco]

Ultima (HM) and GKMMXII are a lot of fun, although in my limited experience on Ultima, I haven't figured out exactly where I am supposed to go during the perimeter bit phase. Running to the middle prevents the massive airship damage, but gets me ganked by a slew of laser beams. I've beaten the fight, but that part usually gets me killed or close to it. Kind of hard to pick up where a safe spot is with that many blue lasers going off.

[Francisco]

As for bosses I don't really enjoy - I find the bosses in Pharos to be a mix of bland and annoying. All the WP/AK bosses are pretty boring too at this point - but that's probably a result of over-familiarity. As a MNK, the ADS in Turn 1 is one of my least favorite things, because Repelling Cannon seems like it's way too fast of an AoE for a circle that big. You also have limited space, so you need to make sure you're not going to run right into a wall.

In Turn 2, I also dislike Disposal Node. Again, as MNK, when the "X" AoE goes off, you have very limited places to run to. Not only that, it's not exactly clear where the safe-spots are. I've only fought this mob twice, dying to the "X" AoE on the first attempt. On the second attempt, I managed to dodge it twice, but this was due to me coincidentally switching from flank to rear at the right time, and managing to blindly strafe into a safe spot. It was pure luck.

(Sorry for triple posting, but what's with the 1000 character limit?)

[CrystalRainbow]

How good do I feel after the win.

in FFXI, COP final boss, There is an NPC that helps with the fight that can be raised.. My team was down to a mnk still alive, I reraised myself raised the NPC. Then the mnk and I died and NPC finished off the fight with all the PC dead. It was great. It could have gone both ways but we got win.

[Seidaku]

Here is how I would consider fixing the situation.

I would double the time it takes to kill any one of these bosses. That makes playing the mechanics a little more interesting. I would also make it so failing a mechanic will remove a player from the game for a set period of time. This could include killing them and making it so a healer has to run down to cast revive on them or something. Or just locking a char out if they miss the weights or something for a bit.

This rewards people who properly do the mechanics with a faster kill and does not completely punish those that are trying to get better or learn. It is still possible to fail if enough people mess up as well.

I would then base the rewards given at the end based on how many mistakes were made and possibly the time spent or something. Those progressing for story would get the basic reward for completion, special items for quests next and finally the accessories and such last.