Tried out PvP with WHM and SCH...made me reconsider PvE choice.

[WhoIsTheGuest]

My main character is WHM, love it. Occasionally play as SCH, but still like WHM more.
Before patch 2.1, I already had all DoM classes to lv50.
Main WHM has Relic +1, average iLvl at 86.
The rest (SCH, SMN, BLM) have only Relic +0, mainly in DarkLights, with SCH sharing some of WHM post-DarkLight pieces.

This weekend, I started to try out PvP, randomly playing with all 4 DoM classes to get some taste and experience, then bought Purity and Equanimity at rank 6. Retried with SCH and WHM, until rank 7.

I must say, I nearly hop on SCH bandwagon after my lil' PvP tryouts. Playing as SCH in PvP is much more easier and "powerful"/"in-control" than WHM, mainly due to all kinds of utilities available to SCH. So much so, that it even makes me reconsider my choice for PvE.

Here's a score-list that I made when I try to decide if I should focus pvp-ing with SCH or WHM.
I ended up mixing PvE considerations in it halfway through. So not every item in this list is PvP-orientated.
This list is made with "WHM vs SCH" in-mind, for decision-making. Since I am leaning towards WHM, [1] = WHM wins, [-1] = SCH wins, [0] = neutral/note.

Here we go:
[1] Holy (AoE DPS + Stun)
[0] Holy impossible to pull-off without Swiftcast (PvP), even with Swiftcast, long animation time.
[1] Fluid Aura (knockback + bind)
[1] Protect
[1] Stonewall
[1] Stone (slow)
[1] Benediction
[-1] Benediction cooldown too long (pvp)
[1] AoE Heals
[0] AoE Heals hardly used (pvp, teammates scattered)
[1] Regen + Medica II mini-regen pre-battle (pvp).
[1] Divine Seal
[1] Repose
[0] Repose (pvp), more often than not, cost Swiftcast to pull-off. Swiftcast is very valuable.
[1] Presence of Mind
[-1] Presence of Mind cooldown too long (pvp)
[0] WHM can use 1h + shield, has trade-offs.
[0] WHM Burst DPS. SCH DoT DPS, but free to heal after setting-up DoTs.
[-1] WHM limiting MP factor.
[-1] WHM when revived, mp big prob. SCH can regain quickly.
[-1] WHM heal procs totally unreliable (can't be specced to improve), SCH crit proc is spec-able to improve chance, gives double shield.
[-1] SCH awesome healbot (pet)
[-1] SCH has alternative offensive pet if intensive healing not required, can even silence.
[-1] SCH insta-cast blind (Ruin II).
[-1] Miasma II insta-cast, reduce hp healed + slow, hit multiple targets, great when many melee chasing.
[-1] Miasma II insta-cast aoe through wall, interrupt cast-time spells (PvP). Holy can hit through wall too, but impossible to be used as interrupt due to long cast time and animation time. Even if used with swiftcast, long animation time (both swiftcast + Holy) still makes it quite impossible/highly likely to fail.
[-1] If WHM's teammates hit by SCH insta-cast Miasma II decease, needs multiple cast-time Esuna to clear before cast-time heal. 1 insta-cast = costs multiple cast-time. WHM team at disadvantage vs SCH team.
[-1] Fluid Aura affects only 1 person. Miasma affects multiples, plus decease.
[-1] Lustrate, can be used 3 times every 1 min (75% hp), or 6 times in a burst if saved-up.
[-1] Lustrate is very great for PvP compared to Benediction, because unlike PvE where boss can often nearly one-shot player or where mechanics requires healing to full (such as Pharos), in PvP it's preferable to have low cooldown sufficient heals to deal with highly dynamic situation.
[-1] Enhanced Eye for an Eye is awesome (pvp + pve).
[-1] Enhanced Virus is awesome (pvp + pve).
[-1] Sacred Soil is awesome (pvp + pve).
[0] Succor AoE less heal but has shield.

I didn't even need to weight/sum the points up. SCH vs WHM is so great in PvP, I feel as if I am handicapping my team if I play as WHM...But I still find playing as WHM more fun and rewarding, probably due to the challenges, so I have no plan of switching, I'll just train till I get better in PvP. Still, wish to put the list I made out here, to see if others share the same feeling.

Lustrate makes me hope that Benediction's cooldown time becomes 1mins, but insta-heal 50% hp.
Miasma II makes me hope WHM gets a debuff that will reduce hp healed for enemies in PvP too.

I really hope WHMs can be made on-par with SCH in future patches, both PvP and PvE-wise.


TL;DR: another blatant WHM vs SCH thread. No, don't worry, not asking to nerf SCH, because I am playing one too.

[coffeeking]

pvp with whm, my main job, is awfull. run stun run..bored

[Alexia89]

Benediction is fine. The CD isn't really that extreme for its purpose. I guarantee if the CD was dropped any all the Scholar mains would cry about it.

I feel your pain for PvP, I really do. However I will probably just Scholar for PvP and WHM for PvE.
There hasn't been a single moment in PvE yet where I've thought "should've rolled Scholar" lol.
I'm sure they will come up with a way to balance the PvP a bit, but I really don't think either healing class needs to be brought closer to the other in PvE. Both fit their niche nicely.

[cainejw]

You realize it makes no sense to decide to do PVE Scholar based on PVP, right? I mean...really.

[YuiSasaki]

Benediction is fine. The CD isn't really that extreme for its purpose. I guarantee if the CD was dropped any all the Scholar mains would cry about it.

On a side note: Not every SCH would cry about it. My main is SCH and I agree that the benediction CD is way too long. 1.5-2min would suffice (and a 90% heal cuz most of the time 10% goes as overheal). Not to mention that the animation is way to long and the target is sometimes dead and benediction is on CD. The last point could be just my issue tho^^.

[Alexia89]

Yeah. The animation needs to be fixed- devastating to have the target die before animation finishes but still have it go on CD

[sharazisspecial]

Yeah. The animation needs to be fixed- devastating to have the target die before animation finishes but still have it go on CD

I don't understand any arguement agaisnt this. What is the difference between applying the hp increase instantly then later aesthetic wise instant heal can make sense. The benediction animation just could just be magical aftermath.
FFxi benediction was an instant pt heal even with its lengthy animation?

I have my animations turned off anyway , so i don't even care.

Lustrate and benediction should apply heal at the start of the animation , not at the end.

Stoneskin is a huge offender too. Perhaps even the worst of the bunch? Though its closely tied with benediction.

[WhoIsTheGuest]

You realize it makes no sense to decide to do PVE Scholar based on PVP, right? I mean...really.

I guess you went straight for TLDR, without reading through all the items I listed. Not all of them is purely PvP related.
As for a summary:
- WHM once dead, no good way to regain MP without help from bard. SCH can hold on its own.
- WHM heal-procs totally unreliable, but SCH can spec to improve chance...plus extra shield with that...
- Too long cooldown for Benediction. Lustrate is more reliable.
- Presence of Mind cooldown too long.

And as I said, I like WHM so not going to switch, but SCH is much more versatile with more tricks under their sleeves, and less MP limiting. These traits are very favorable for dynamic situations, such as one in PvP, but even more icing on the cake for PvE.
The strength of WHM (AoE healing) becomes too situational to use in PvP. But as for SCH? It's only better. So much better, that I feel guilty to be WHM for my team, if the opponent team has SCH.
In PvP, WHM is totally eclipsed by SCH:
- Better mobility (more instacasts)
- Healbot+distraction (pet with hp pool)
- Much more and better utilities (enhanced virus + EfaE, blind, Miasma II, Sacred Soil + Shadow Flare)
- Better style of healing:
-- Lustrate >>> Benediction
-- Strength of WHM (AoE Heal) becomes moot in PvP: AoE heal very situational for PvP due to scattered teammates and etc.
-- Miasma II = anti-healing, which makes the team with WHM much harder to heal, handicapped, because for each target that insta-cast Miasma affected, WHM need to pull-off two cast-time spells: Esuna + Heal. FOR. EACH. AFFECTED. TARGET.

I am not asking for SCH nerf, but simply wish that WHM can be equally good.

[cainejw]

WHM has Shroud. WHM can go Crit. Lustrate shares resources with Energy Drain, Bane, and Sacred Soil whereas Benediction doesn't. SCH doesn't have a spell speed buff innate to the class. They have to rely on a faerie.

SCH is supposed to be more versatile. That's the entire point.

A WHM is good. This is, frankly, another QQ post by a WHM saying, "The grass is greener on the other side!" No, it's not. SCH doesn't have a reliable heal over time. We cannot AOE heal with the same power. WHM has Cure III, Medica, and Medica II. SCH has Succor and maybe Whispering Dawn. Succor is 150, Whispering Dawn is 100 potency. Medica is 300 potency, Medica II is 200, and Cure III is 550 potency.

Scholar gets Physick, an equal to Cure I. To get closed to the power of Cure II (650), Scholars have to use Adloquium (300) with Embrace (300). Even then, we lack 50 potency on you there.

WHMs can generate more healing on single targets AND group targets. They can do it in strong bursts or over time. They can have weak heals and incredibly strong heals WITH multiple kinds of procs. SCH get many tools to address offsets of weaker heals. That's our tradeoff as scholars. You get the glory of huge numbers. I get the mitigation and the hard work for my heals to be split among me and my faerie.

Frankly, if you want the tools, you need to give up the power and eat some nerfs. Buffing SCH is out of the question as it would require a complete rebalancing of fights with so much healing ability from every class. If we make the classes like each other, there's no reason to be anything but a WHM in either PVP or PVE.

[Jarlax]

Think an Aoe esuna would fix the pvp situation vs the instant aoe status ailments. Think it would be balanced, pvp only with short CD this way SCH has the AOE disease miasma II but WHM has AOE remove 1 effect at a time.