Primals Unquestionably Bad

[dragonflie]

I think that it's perhaps the nature of those who summon the primals that give rise to whatever personality they gain.
From what we know of King Mog, he was a benevolent king to his moogles in his legend, yet when summoned, he was more evil, most likely a twisted version of what he used to be.

From what I understand in the King Mog quest, the primals are summoned from the wishing power of the collective mind and giving form through the use of all the crystals gathered.
Since most of the time they are summoned for protection, they are thus given the personality of one who wishes to smite his enemies and conquer others.

My theory is that if the good faction of say the Amalj'aa were to summon Ifrit, perhaps he would be more benevolent.
Of course, due to the use of aether, they would probably never do that.


Anyway, I learned from reading Anymoose's resume of 1.0 that the ritual to summon the 12 during the battle against Bahamut was akin to a primal summoning. Since the ritual needed the prayers of the people in order to appear, this itself was destructive to the world due to the high amount of aether needed.

[jomoru]

My theory is that if the good faction of say the Amalj'aa were to summon Ifrit, perhaps he would be more benevolent.
Of course, due to the use of aether, they would probably never do that.

My theory is that its not so much a problem with the summoner as the summoning method. Each and every "bad" summons we see was taught by the Ascians.

[Namir]

Being evil is just a matter of perspective, we view the Primals as evil because the beast tribes may use them to attack our cities and just because their mere existence causes an imbalance in the world, but the beast tribes certainly don't consider them evil, especially in the case of the kobolds, Titan isn't shown to be evil, simply protective of his children. Also, let's not forget that Limsa was the one who broke the agreement with the kobolds and took their lands. To put it into our real world perspective, during the age of the American colonies, were the native indians evil because they were fighting against the colonists? No, they were simply protecting their lands from invaders, to them, the colonists were "evil", simply because their existence and actions threatened their homes. Ramuh is also not shown to be purely evil, at least from what we have learned from the main story. The only Primals that are explicitly shown to be evil are Ifrit and Garuda.

Also, going back to the game, couldn't the imbalance in aether argument be used against the twelve as well? If I remember correctly the reason Alphinaud's grandfather didn't fully summon them during the ritual to seal back Bahamut was because their manifestation in the realm would cause an immense imbalance in aether, possibly causing more harm than good.

[myahele]

I wouldn't call the primals evil. Sure, some are worst than others. However, thier very existence is a threat to the world due to thier over consumption of aether.

I believe in the ala mhigan quest there were a groups of people that wanted to summon rhalgr. The method was similar to summoning primals in that they needed vast amounts of crystals. From what I gathered summoning them was BAD idea.

Maybe summoning the 12 in that way will corrupt them? I also think what separate them from primalsnis due to the fact that they have tons of worshippers compared to the smaller beast men tribes

[myahele]

There's also the issue with good king moogle mog. He was a benevolent person/non primal. But when he was summoned via similar methods as a primal he became corrupt and shares many traits of a primal.

My guess if that if one of the 12 was summoned the same way as the mog king (ascian method) then the same can happen.

They'll probably be the most powerful due to the fact that they are the patron deities of great nations.

[Anonymoose]

My guess if that if one of the 12 was summoned the same way as the mog king (ascian method) then the same can happen.

Perhaps the true reason Louisoix used our prayers to conjure only their strength...

This theory of how primals work has really picked up steam around here, but even if I did play a role in it, I'm not ready to accept it whole-heartedly. All of the early promotion for FFXIV focused on the embrace of the Twelve on Eorzea, and SE doesn't usually lie so hard so fast. Even in FFXI, the religious mythology of those who defiled the heavens and had their homes cast into the sea as an act of divine retribution ended up being pretty damn close.

Of course, we haven't heard much from before the time of the Allag and most of the lore of the wandering races has them showing up long after their fall. The lore says that Eorzea belonged only to the Twelve when the wandering races arrived and that they protected us out of appreciation of our resilience... and this is where I see some possibility. Think about it - if the land belonged only to the Twelve when we showed up, but the Allag ran the show before that... maybe Acheron wasn't the only giant, augmented Allag guardian that survived the Fourth Umbral. If other Allag guardians were the original basis for the legends of the Twelve, then we wouldn't be wiping the floor with SE's mythology and we'd have support for the theory of summoning that we're building, which would be comforting... but right now we don't have much to go on, and nowhere near enough for me to make that claim.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Actually, I'm more intrigued about the cosmology of the Primals and the Twelve rather than their respective moralities. It seems to me that it's implied that the Twelve can be summoned in more or less the same fashion as the Primals, and that leads me to wonder if the Twelve aren't themselves entities of materialised aether, much like the Primals.

Are they "gods" in the world-creating sense, or "gods" in the sense of being extremely powerful beings? By this, I'm referring to the very different way the Japanese think of "gods", in contrast to the Judeo-Christian West. What makes the Twelve different from the Primals? In terms of power, it seems to me that the Twelve are apparently on the same level of elder Primals like Bahamut.

And if we were to continue the discussion on morality, I would highlight the strong clues that Rhalgr of the Twelve doesn't seem like a particularly benevolent entity. In fact, it seems that Ala Mhigo, whose citizens worshipped the Destroyer, was once very much a belligerent power in Eorzea, and its last ruler was apparently a cruel tyrant brought down by revolution.

So, if nothing else, it suggests that the Twelve aren't necessarily "good" powers in the strict sense. I, for one, would suspect the benevolence of Halone as well, given the way the zealous worship of the Fury has warped the politics of Ishgard.

I haven't completed the main story yet, so perhaps there will be answers by the end, but going by some of the discussion here, I reckon that the bigger questions about natural philosophy haven't quite been answered. Am I right?

[jomoru]

Perhaps the true reason Louisoix used our prayers to conjure only their strength...

This theory of how primals work has really picked up steam around here, but even if I did play a role in it, I'm not ready to accept it whole-heartedly. All of the early promotion for FFXIV focused on the embrace of the Twelve on Eorzea, and SE doesn't usually lie so hard so fast. Even in FFXI, the religious mythology of those who defiled the heavens and had their homes cast into the sea as an act of divine retribution ended up being pretty damn close..

Its not so much that people believe the 12 are innately evil just that the Ascians summons are innately corruptive. Perhaps there is a second tier goal the corruption of these entities by the summons, poison Ifrit by repeatly summoning him until he is something.. darker do so for all the primals and the mother crystal becomes the dark crystal.

[DigitalFowl]

(DISCLAIMER: I have touched nothing concerning Thornmarch or Coil, so I know of nothing concerning the lore there AND have yet to complete the MS Epilogue, which I intend to do today.)

I'm just completely spitballing an idea here but, would it be absurd to suggest that perhaps the Echo is a power much like what the Ascians have and their connection to that 'parallel' Hydaelyn? I know that Hydaelyn appears to choose those blessed with the Echo (I guess?) but would it be absurd if the Echo exists in a bloodline somehow?

So if we go off that, would it then also be possible that adventurers could participate, in the future, rituals to summons aetherically pacified Primals? Would allow for an excuse to summon more complex forms of primals at least, such as a smaller but more accurate garuda and Titan (Perhaps not ifrit) and would allow those beings to perhaps work together and whatnot.

If we assume that the parallel Hydaelyn and its worshippers, the Ascians, are beings of chaos and destruction, then from a logical standpoint those blessed with the Echo should represent Order and Life. So presumably, maybe we can find a way to summon primals and elders in a stable and permanently physical state.