Primals Unquestionably Bad

[Niniyo]

With all of the uncertainty about The Twelve, the nature of Bahamut, and other things in the world, it seems really disappointing to me that the Primals are unquestionably Bad Things(tm).

We had the other thread I created about Primals and Egis, and the nature of how they were connected, and whether they were aware the entire time, etc... But this is more fundamental.

The Scions taught us about what the Primals were, and that, unlike other forms of life, they would gorge themselves on aether until it ultimately brought about the end of everything on Hydaelyn. (Right?)

[Niniyo]

Having been a fan of previous FF games, however, it's really sad to see them be so evil. In FFIV, for instance, Rydia was very close with Leviathan and the others, and in FFIX they seemed as though they wanted to help Princess Garnet. Even in FFVI, despite causing problems, they ultimately wanted to help.

Why is there such a divide here? Why is it, basically, impossible for a PC to admire the Primals without being either stupid or, essentially, wishing for the end of days?

EDIT: How could I fail to talk about FFX o.o But yes, again, a close relationship is shown between summoner and the Aeons, "Primals", there.

[Fluttersnipe]

Ramuh is a good primal, in the FF series afaik. I can't remember exactly, but he sacrificed himself to help a major character in another FF game. Not sure why the sylphs in XIV can't summon him though.

He could be evil in this game, but his appearance lends itself well to being a symbol of wisdom and patience, which aren't inherently good, but lend themselves well to that ideal.

[Skies]

Flutter, Ramuh in this game is not actually strictly evil, hell he is a deeply pacifistic Primal in that he is in fact currently summoned and roaming the Sylphlands, yet he orders them not to attack, he will simply not suffer anyone hurting his children.

Nor is Titan actually an evil primal either, all he does is protect his children as well, his clash against Limsa is a simple matter of Limsa literally trying to take over kobold lands.

Yet, yes, their nature is terrible in itself. For them to exist they must consume aether, which is required for other things to live. They are, after all, born of chaos.

Their simple existance is dangerous, but they themselves are not always truly evil. Is that the end of the story?

(given that, I do personally like a Truly Evil antagonist, sometimes you just need someone that you can unmistakably murder and not feel bad about)

[Niniyo]

The Sylphs, even the Temptered Sylphs, haven't resummoned Ramuh, and the Sylphs of Little Solace say as much. The Sylphs of Little Solace say that they do not want to summon Ramuh, and the tempered ones have also not summoned him.

Again, if Ramuh *had* been summoned, based on what we know, we'd have *no choice* but to fight and kill him, or his existence would lead to the death of the world. That's what I mean, and that's the problem I'm talking about. Even if a Primal is "good", they're "bad".

Garuda isn't evil either than, given the Ixal were the original inhabitants of The Shroud, and while the Elezen say that the Elementals disapproved of them (the Ixal) and gave leave to them (Elezen) to build there, we only really have their word for it, so it's perfectly reasonable to wonder if the Elezen didn't try to kick the Ixal out and they summoned Garuda in order to take back what they feel is rightfully theirs.

[Skies]

Again, if Ramuh *had* been summoned, based on what we know, we'd have *no choice* but to fight and kill him, or his existence would lead to the death of the world. That's what I mean, and that's the problem I'm talking about. Even if a Primal is "good", they're "bad".

First noting that Garuda herself is pretty damn evil AND deranged, she has no qualms consuming her own worshippers...

That aside, in relation to the quote. Ramuh has, in fact, been summoned already. In the Main Quest the part where you go to Little Solace you do discover that much, except since Ramuh is such a peaceful primal you decide to simply let them be for the time as you have much more important threats, such as Titan, the Garleans and whatnot, no worry about someone has won't move until attacked.

And as I mentioned, nobody knows wether this is the whole story or not, it would be just boring if one could call all the twists in a story before we reach them, simply because they fit some mold we expect.

And as I said before, it does make me quite happy that the primals are an evil to be destroyed regardless, we need an enemy like that, can't have everything by someone we feel bad about fighting.

[WellFooled]

Having been a fan of previous FF games, however, it's really sad to see them be so evil.

The Primals being evil was one of the most interesting parts of the lore when I first started playing. Every Final Fantasy takes place in a different universe, so part of the fun for me is seeing how classic elements get reinvented every time. I enjoy the summons being the villains :P Can't wait to see what they do with other classics like Shiva and Leviathan.

[Enkidoh]

The fact is though, the Primals have a negative, corrupting influence by their very nature - it's how much or how little they spread that influence with which they each differ by. Ifrit and Garuda are clearly the most dangerous ones (excluding Odin and Bahamut of course), Ifrit due to his liberal use of tempering to indoctrinate both his amalj'aa kin and other races alike, and Garuda due to her insanity and bloodthirsty nature. The other Primals seem to be more content to just protect their specific lands, (ala Titan, Ramuh), or haven't yet been summoned (Leviathan, Shiva), but it's inevitable conflict caused by the influence of these Primals will occur in the future.

This also leads to an interesting comparison between the Primals - ala, tempering. Of all the Primals, Ifrit seems to be the only one directly shown tempering both the amalj'aa and members of both other beast tribes and the five races alike. Titan isn't shown tempering at all, and even Garuda only resorted to it on a single occasion after the player defeats her and she springs back, intending to make an example of the player to punish them by making them her slave for eternity. Of course, this backfires on her.

So, the fact only Ifrit seems to be hellbent on creating an army of zealous mindless worshipers seems to suggest Ifrit is somewhat insecure in his strength - seeming to enslave almost the entire amalj'aa race doesn't seem to be enough for him, and hence he resorts to tempering other races as well. As a Primal's power is directly tied to how many believe and worship them, well, it's obvious he feels the more the better in his case.

This also juxtaposes the situation with the dragonkin in Coerthas - Ishgardians regard those who have been influenced by the dragons as heretics to be killed, and in fact, on several occasions the player is shown not only is this all too real, in fact those unfortunates seem to show all the signs of tempering - just like Ifrit's tempered, they seem to be mindless slaves of the beastmen zealously devoted to them, although who or what is the dragonkin's Primal has not been revealed. So, does that mean the dragonkin's yet to be seen Primal has in fact been tempering long before the amalj'aa summoned Ifrit? I've heard Bahamut constantly mentioned as the dragonkin's Primal, but considering Ishgard has been at war with the dragons for years even while Bahamut was still confined in Dalamud, I don't think this is the case at all. Tiamat perhaps? Or another dragon Primal? Either way, it's a very interesting idea.

[Teakwood]

As Skies mentioned, they're not really /evil/ as much as control over aether is a zero-sum game; even the more inherently peaceful primals were born out of a wish for protection and certainty in unstable times from their respective beastman races. I mean, Gaius is -completely- correct and has the moral high ground, the only rational thing to do is make all the gods into omelettes and unite all the lands under one banner of civilisation and progress. ...if only the bastard hadn't let himself get schnookered by the Ascians just like everyone else. ;_;

It's also important to bear in mind that the beastmen were deliberately incited to summon their Primals in a fashion -most- conducive to crap spiralling completely out of control by the Ascians. The more rapacious the Primals, the more aether is siphoned away from Hydaelyn and the more power the Primals have to wreak havoc. In a more peaceful, less Ascian infested world, maybe the Primals would be able to get along nicely. ;_;

[PArcher]

Not all the Primals are evil. I'm sure of that.


Ramuh and Titan for sure are not. I'd give Ramuh a Neutral or Neutral Good alignment; he just wants to protect his followers, and really doesn't have any issues with anyone who doesn't threaten his followers (now, I know eventually we'll have to fight him, but it would be really interesting to actually ally with him).
Titan I'd probably give Lawful Neutral; he wants the best for his children (now, I can't tell if the Kobolds are tempered or just following, since we do not see any tempering from him) and is only going after Limsa because they broke a treaty. He's another Primal I'd love to be able to talk to and try to work things out with (no, its not because I hate his fights; I actually enjoy Titan HM a lot and probably will like EX too)
Garuda...is questionable...I'd personally give her Chaotic Neutral, she just personifies that alignment so well. But if she has to be evil, it would be Chaotic Evil (still think CN is better). CN are just completely unpredictable; they can do anything at any time, be calm one moment and fly into a rage the next.
I'd definitely say Ifrit is evil; probably Neutral Evil (Chaotic Evil is also a possibility). He's definitely a bit insecure, sending his followers on raids to get more followers, and seems to just want to gain more and more power, in any way he can, whether to just gain power or to conquer I'm not sure (should finish the Amal'jaa quests first, but that's another week, at least). Definitely evil.
I don't know lore of Leviathan, but based on the Sahagan, I'd likely go with an evil alignment as well...but until we get the story with this Primal and the Sahagan quests...its hard to say. But...Sahagan are 'traditionally' evil, so that's my "base" for now.

As for the Dragons...there was art for Tiamat somewhere...for her to be the Dragon's Primal...would be interesting. Based on the Dragoon storyline, I don't feel that the dragons are wholly evil (heck, I feel that the Dragoons may actually turn out to fight for the Dragons by the end of it)...it may be that Ishgard tried to conquer dragon lands and they're still just fighting back after all these years, or Ishgard split from the dragons or something; I don't know. And maybe Nidhogg is a primal (again, go take a look at the Dragoon story) which means he could be anything.


From the standpoint of the Mothercrystal...all the Primals, are, in fact, bad. Alignment is irrelevant here, since its their very nature that makes them bad. They suck aether out of the lands and that has a detrimental effect on Her, so they need to be destroyed. So from this standpoint (which is what our characters are on), all Primals = BAD. But outside this...they don't have to be, and depending on how our future interactions with the Ascians and Zodiark go...we may ally with some Primals...