Wall of text about DF kick options, DF misuse, EU Language issues...

[evilsohn]

Yesterday my FC and I wanted to take on Titan Hard. We were short one Healer and chose the direct approach via DF. I listed our Group as E and D language.
Our first heal was poorly equiped and in his player information F was his only highlighted language.
So we thought, well, whatever, lets give it a try. After 30 mins of wiping, he asked us to kick him, as he did not want to go on (in short english). So while we were discussing if we should kick him or not in TS he simply left the party.
The next Heal we got, was even worse - he would not use his skills at the right times (like not using his AE Shield ability when Titan jumps) and collected a lot of plumes.
After the first wipe we checked his gear and were pretty shocked that a lot of his jewlery gear was lvl 42-46 Stuff.
We discussed about this in TS. We might have been able to drag him along with a lot of effort (we are not good enough yet to "farm" Titan) but would that do any good? It would mean a lot of wiping, repair costs and frustration to us and it would also mean, that this player will be able to pass titan, to now tackle Garuda Extreme through DF.
In the end we choose to kick him, but when I opened the kick window I could not find a fitting reason for kicking. There was simply afk, dc, harrassment and cheating....
The next heal was again neither E nor D speaking and underequipped, so after that we called it quits for the day and decided to do something else.

After sleeping a night over what happened yesterday and after thinking alot about what happened and what might be the reasons why this all happened, I would like to suggest a few things:

To the Devs:
please have us write an explanation why someone gets kicked when choosing harrasment or cheating. Harrasment and cheating are harsh accusations that should not be simply klicked on and pushed through. Players might find themselves unjustfully treated and it might shed a false light on players that get kicked by these two.

To the Community:
Just because you have unlocked a certain instance in the game does not automatically mean that you are ready for it. If you find yourself wiping more often than not, take some time to consider your gear. Make comparisons to the other players that are in the instance with you. Look what requirements party finder groups and shout channel groups have and try to reach those requirements before listing for these instances in DF.
I am absolutely sure, that every Instance can be done with the right combination of routine, experience and gear.

To the EU Community:
I have heard a lot of people say "well, just check J, E, D, and F - that way you do not have to wait as long in DF". Please do not follow this advice. J,E,D and F options are there for a reason. I do not want to get stuck with players that checked them all but cannot understand a word that I am typing. I only checked the languages I can understand, because I want to be able to communicate with the people I play with.
The gear requirement of some instances is as low as it is, because it can be done with the right coordination and strategy.
But it is close to impossible to coordinate and apply a strategy when no one speaks the same language.

Phew............ a wall of text, but I had to get this off my shoulders.
Just to make sure no one misunderstands this. I am neither an elitist (quite the opposite, I love helping new players on their way with advice, gear I am able to craft for free and joining them in low lev instances) nor a racist (just because I do not understand you does not mean I hate you; I am listing in only the languages in which I can communicate, please, you do the same).
I just wanted to shed light on three things, that in my opinion need improvement.

[Eidolon]

Just a heads up - you can bypass the post limit by editing the remainder of your post, so it's one large seemless post instead of multiple posts. ^_^ I'll read it over when you're done and respond proper. <3 :3

[Ri_ri]

Don't abuse the vote to kick just because you don't like their gear.
I hope SE starts taking serious action against this.

[evilsohn]

Just a heads up - you can bypass the post limit by editing the remainder of your post, so it's one large seemless post instead of multiple posts. ^_^ I'll read it over when you're done and respond proper. <3 :3

Thank You for the advice. Much appreciated

[nitewing]

first off SE can suspend/ban your account for abusing the vote kick. second most people us the DF to learn those fights most people that use it don't go in expecting to beat titan and lastly what did you expect to get for a healer using the DF tool.

[Eidolon]

I have ultimately felt like the Vote to kick feature has come up short in a lot of regards. Yet at the same time, I have seen it show a good light come from it, too.

First and foremost, the issue with the system is that it requires a 50% vote, and not a 50%< vote (I.E., it requires 2/4, not 3/4 or 5/8.) This is a big problem because it means that 9/10, people will kick for no reason whatsoever (Moreso just because they click yes without even really thinking of it. I've seen a number of people get kicked without a word said, not because they did anything wrong - but just because someone clicked yes.)


Yet at the same time, I'm happy when I can kick someone who's being a toxic A-hole, who's showing blatant disregard for other people's feelings or just being an overall hindrance to the group. But I agree with you - there needs to be better reasons. There really should be more options such as "Not playing to the game's mechanics' or just SOMETHING to say 'We feel we need a more skilled player in this slot."

And don't get me wrong - I've kicked people before.

I had one particularly toxic bard in Aurum Vale. He insisted I lost hate on the second boss (You know, the one with a hate reset?) and also blamed my tanking skill when he got backed into a corner and took a full 100 onze swing without even trying to dodge. He just stood there, and took it. This in and of itself wouldn't be bad, had he not proceeded to try and degrade me afterwards and started an argument in the party chat in regards to it. Ultimately, I voted to kick him, even though we downed the boss, just because he was bringing a generally vile atmosphere to the party at that point.

Perhaps when they start the 'abandon duty' option, they will add a 'Withdraw Request' option for party members who would like to be removed because they realise they are not up to par for the dungoun. An option where they can request to withdraw, and as long as 1-2 other people agree, they withdraw with no penalty (Which would be nice on a lot of regards.)

Anyways, hopefully your future runs go better~ <3 ^^

[Squa]

I think they should increase the DF gear req's by a bit across the board.

[MurakumoMillennium]

Don't abuse the vote to kick just because you don't like their gear.

So what do you do when you get somebody with gear that can essentially make a fight near impossible for you? Just wipe until you time out or they leave? Not saying you should kick them, but they are essentially wasting the time of 3-4 other people by coming severely undergeared to a fight. People should know by now that the ilvl restriction is far too low for most groups.

[Zakalwe]

Thanks to the OP for a well thought-out and well-argued post. While I agree with much of what he says I disagree in one key point. The basic problem seems that the OP used the wrong tool in putting together his run. He used DF rather than PF.

In Party Finder you can set your own requirements for gear, experience, play-style, whatever. If someone joins your group who does not meet your requirements you can kick him before you start the run.

In Duty Finder you go with what you get. Permitted use of the kick function is tightly limited to 4 reasons, and only those reasons: afk, cheating, dc, harassment. Being a weak player or having gear that meets SE's minimum (but in your opinion is still insufficient) are not amoung the enumerated reasons.

One can well argue that SE set the gear minimums for certain runs too low or that the promised-but-not-here-yet abandon duty vote function is needed asap. A consensual withdrawal option is also a good idea. But a word of warning (as another poster mentioned), using the vote kick for weak armour or poor (but not harassing) play are currently reportable actions and can lead to temporary suspensions or even bans.

I don't believe SE is going to broaden the permissible uses of vote kick, out of fear that it will lead to rampant abuse. In fact, I think it should be strengthened to require a majority vote of the party members rather than the majority of voters as it currently is. That is, 3/4 for small parties and 5/8 for full parties.

Again, thanks to the OP for such a thoughtful posting.

[Deminia]

Perhaps when they start the 'abandon duty' option, they will add a 'Withdraw Request' option for party members who would like to be removed because they realise they are not up to par for the dungoun. An option where they can request to withdraw, and as long as 1-2 other people agree, they withdraw with no penalty (Which would be nice on a lot of regards.)

I like this idea. I'd like to see more kick options - I do not feel that kicking a player for performing badly should be considered harassment unless they are refusing to listen or are being jerks. I do think there needs to be something to select when the rest of the party feels a "still learning" party member has been given a chance but is preventing the party from completing the duty due to inexperience.