Tanks

[Electrowitch]

Except that's not that in reality, look at titan, one death, whoever it is, means wipe.
Same for all DPS Check.

Thats absolutley no true, you can easily kill titan with a dps down the whole fight, even with 2 down if the rest of the pt is goog geared and skilled. Titan is NO Dps Check as almost everybody thinks. The Heart goes down so fast and easy even with 1 or 2 Dps missing its no problem. In worst case you can also lb and have a healer go cleric stance.

[Archona]

Thats absolutley no true, you can easily kill titan with a dps down the whole fight, even with 2 down if the rest of the pt is goog geared and skilled. Titan is NO Dps Check as almost everybody thinks. The Heart goes down so fast and easy even with 1 or 2 Dps missing its no problem. In worst case you can also lb and have a healer go cleric stance.

Just to add to your post, Titan HM has been 3 or 4manned already. It can also be cleared with 6 or 7 WHMs and no DPS (or only just a Bard for Foe Req). The DPS role is not required whatsoever. Cleric Stance has made sure of that.

[Ri_ri]

Thats absolutley no true, you can easily kill titan with a dps down the whole fight, even with 2 down if the rest of the pt is goog geared and skilled. Titan is NO Dps Check as almost everybody thinks. The Heart goes down so fast and easy even with 1 or 2 Dps missing its no problem. In worst case you can also lb and have a healer go cleric stance.

Only in over geared party. Doing a level 80 boss in Relic and Allagan is not the norm.

They still have it easier though. Healers have to know about everything or people will just die to Tumults/Mountain Buster. Then they have to deal with being in Gaol... because healing wasn't thankless enough.

This is what I like about Ultima. Tanks and healers dying there is not too bad. You just raise them and recover.

While the moment a tank drops in Garuda EM, it's wipe. Any of them. While if a caster dies... actually, they don't even have a risk of dying there

[Aicasia]

Most mechanics look like this in MMOs with the holy trinity:

Tank dies, hard to recover or complete wipe.

Healer dies, hard to recover or complete wipe.

DPS dies, rez or no rez instantly won't matter much, group recovers as if nothing happened.

Any fight where this is true is a poorly designed and tuned fight. If too many people in any role die its hard to recover unless there is an excessive enrage timer and very little damage coming at the players.

Generally bosses hit hard. That is what makes the tank important. The role is to literally soak damage so no one else does, you can't honestly think people don't play it because of responsibility or any of that garbage, right? The only role with any ACTUAL responsibility is the healer, and even then the responsibility only exists because you have one job. Everyone has one job. It's not some magic thing where suddenly tanks and healers do more work than any other member of the team.

Everyone has one job, if they screw it up they put everyone else in a difficult position. Where people got the idea that tanks and healers are harder to play/take more responsibility is beyond me.

[Lucke]

The only role with any ACTUAL responsibility is the healer, and even then the responsibility only exists because you have one job. Everyone has one job. It's not some magic thing where suddenly tanks and healers do more work than any other member of the team.

If a tank sucks, they lose aggro and everyone dies. They have just as much responsibility as a healer does for keeping everyone alive. DPS kill the mob before the healer runs out of MP which means the tank will take too much damage then die. They all have responsibility, but when a tank/healer fails, that's much more noticeable than when a DPS is only playing at 50% efficiency.

[Aicasia]

If a tank sucks, they lose aggro and everyone dies. They have just as much responsibility as a healer does for keeping everyone alive. DPS kill the mob before the healer runs out of MP which means the tank will take too much damage then die. They all have responsibility, but when a tank/healer fails, that's much more noticeable than when a DPS is only playing at 50% efficiency.

If it is then the fight wasn't designed right. I'm not arguing that point, I'm arguing against people who think a screwup being more noticeable equals more responsibility. It doesn't. It equals pressure, which is something else entirely.

Anyway, if a fight doesn't punish poor DPS it's poorly designed. It doesn't need to be unbeatable, but it should show. I think Grobb is a good example, from Naxx 40. Easy as hell fight, basically free loot, but if you had poor DPS after 30% you would quickly find yourself in a very bad place.

So what you are basically saying is that in instances as soon as everyone get's in we go straight to a boss fight? There are no mobs of monsters that the tank has to keep control of? All the dps has to do is deal damage and maybe avoid an aoe while the tank has to control the mob, avoid aoes and much more. In most case scenarios if the group wipes who gets blamed? The tank does. If there was no real responsibility then no-one would get the blame when wipes occur

I think you misread what I said, but that's on me for wording it poorly. I'm not saying there is NO responsibility, I'm saying no one has more than anyone else until a fight is designed with mechanics to create it. Holding aggro is no more work than healing or DPSing. They all share a responsibility, they all have one job.

P.S. I can tank most trash as a DPS without problem. It doesn't hit hard, so yeah, tanks kind of only are useful for bosses, and even then Dragoons can tank a fair number of those bosses, especially pre-50.

[Rizzo_]

I think you misread what I said, but that's on me for wording it poorly. I'm not saying there is NO responsibility, I'm saying no one has more than anyone else until a fight is designed with mechanics to create it. Holding aggro is no more work than healing or DPSing. They all share a responsibility, they all have one job.
.

I understand this point but again I would say that in nearly all case scenarios the tank has to be on point and know all its job skills and uses. The amount of times Ive seen DPS's who dont even know how to use or when to use most of their skills is shocking. Yes everyone has one job to do but the tank has to do their job Well which means more responsibility to me

[Amyas]

Anyway, if a fight doesn't punish poor DPS it's poorly designed. It doesn't need to be unbeatable, but it should show.

All fights in this game 'punish' poor dps. The longer any fight goes on, the more of a chance there is for a wipe. Pudding boss in wp with crap dd? Doesn't matter how good the tank and healer are (unless its a whm, lol holy) if the dps go down, its a wipe. There are very few fights in this game that don't 'punish' slow dps.

[Bigpurpleharness]

They have just as much responsibility as a healer does for keeping everyone alive.

So let's discuss a scenario, shall we?

For argument's sake, no mistakes being made for this discussion are going to result in a death. We'll simply say failure to dodge always occurs on something like a single plume, or an Ifrit charge, or whatever. Obviously not something you want to happen, but not outright lethal.

So a mistake is made by a DPS, tank or another healer, the tank doesn't pay for it. The DPS don't. The healers do. It's a simple fact that tanks don't have as much to dodge. 2.1 seems to be heading in a direction that actually makes tanks do things, but prior I would argue tanking was easier than DPSing in many fights. For Titan they could simply stand in one spot over and over. The difference between a bad tank with great gear and a good tank with good gear? Seeing who blows a cooldown and casts a stoneskin right before his "swipe" move after landslide, that way it goes off right before mountain buster. That's not really a whole lot to worry about.

Now, assuming you aren't able/willing to be in a perfect group 100% of the time, the slack is essentially going to be picked up via the healers.

In short, everyone pays in part for their own mistakes. Healers, however, pay for their own and others.

[Rizzo_]

Any fight where this is true is a poorly designed and tuned fight. If too many people in any role die its hard to recover unless there is an excessive enrage timer and very little damage coming at the players.

So what you are basically saying is that in instances as soon as everyone get's in we go straight to a boss fight? There are no mobs of monsters that the tank has to keep control of? All the dps has to do is deal damage and maybe avoid an aoe while the tank has to control the mob, avoid aoes and much more. In most case scenarios if the group wipes who gets blamed? The tank does. If there was no real responsibility then no-one would get the blame when wipes occur