Look what just happened in Duty !

[Nysneirdre]

This whole argument is just going in circles. If the person is trolling the group or bad enough where we cant complete the dungeon, I will vote them out.....period. You are free to report me as you wish but I bet they wont don't anything about it.

[ispano]

Commentary: This is precisely the problem. For this specific instance it is required that it be explicitly laid out so that the bads do not cause more nonsense for the already overworked Square-Enix customer service team.

Except it's not a problem. Only people who think like YOU consider it a problem. If you use DF, your rules do NOT apply. Period. You don't get to tell someone that queue'd to do the dungeon, to meet up with overgeared players, that he can't do that dungeon and has to queue again. If he was able to queue, his gear met the requirements. So until you can prove he's doing it intentionally, you're wrong. Again, period.

This is why Party Finder was introduced. To help people set up groups with THEIR rules. You don't like that? Not our problem.

[MikoteAstra]

Except it's not a problem. Only people who think like YOU consider it a problem. If you use DF, your rules do NOT apply. Period. You don't get to tell someone that queue'd to do the dungeon, to meet up with overgeared players, that he can't do that dungeon and has to queue again. If he was able to queue, his gear met the requirements. So until you can prove he's doing it intentionally, you're wrong. Again, period.

This is why Party Finder was introduced. To help people set up groups with THEIR rules. You don't like that? Not our problem.

Well spoken seem some people just refuse to understand this ! Is a common sense, but aperantly they think they are gods in the game and can do what they want !

And what did those two selfish players achieved in the dn, except voting good tank for no real reason! After short time they left the dn because no other tank came! Basicly they unjustified voted a player and destroied the party. No problem for healer he can find a party in 5min why shoul not he abuse the system, me as an example i had to face such rude players and wait once more 1h for the dn!

Why didnt they have gave him an advice, why ddint they help him getting better in the dn if they tought he has poor skill, all this speaks how selfish they are! As if they ddint knew that they will meet with random people in the Duty Finder !

[Xayoc]

Except it's not a problem. Only people who think like YOU consider it a problem. If you use DF, your rules do NOT apply. Period. You don't get to tell someone that queue'd to do the dungeon, to meet up with overgeared players, that he can't do that dungeon and has to queue again. If he was able to queue, his gear met the requirements. So until you can prove he's doing it intentionally, you're wrong. Again, period.

This is why Party Finder was introduced. To help people set up groups with THEIR rules. You don't like that? Not our problem.

Objection: Kicking someone for FATE-grinding their class and being terribad at it is not against the TOS, period.

Commentary: The rules of the group are set by the group so if the majority of a group elect to vote kick someone for poor performance it is entirely in line with the intention of the vote kick function. It is not this one alone taking the action, it is the election of the group to cut a player from the team. It is not malicious not evil nor is it against the rules, a group is permitted to set its own rules and not be dictated to by bads.

How do you expect someone to get good at the dungeon if you are kicking them?

If the required level says they meet the required level to enter the dungeon, you have zero right to kick them based on gear.

Before everyone had nice stuff they did dungeons with normal gear and yet here people are judging because they got better shiny armor it makes you guys look elitist and sad.

Commentary: This one would only kick for gear if it an obvious dodging of the ilvl system (queue with BLM with Tank accessories). What is in contention is kicking for poor ability and or attitude.

[HeroSamson]

How do you expect someone to get good at the dungeon if you are kicking them?

If the required level says they meet the required level to enter the dungeon, you have zero right to kick them based on gear.

Before everyone had nice stuff they did dungeons with normal gear and yet here people are judging because they got better shiny armor it makes you guys look elitist and sad.

[HeroSamson]

Its what I have been noticing with people on here, they win dungeons and think they are better than others because they got farther into the game than them, which they believe they are be all know all of those dungeons and because they got better gear they are better than that person who has nothing.

get over yourselves seriously I have seen crappy geared up people do way better than someone with awesome gear and i am telling you now gear does not make you better than anyone else.

[ispano]

Objection: Kicking someone for FATE-grinding their class and being terribad at it is not against the TOS, period.

Commentary: The rules of the group are set by the group so if the majority of a group elect to vote kick someone for poor performance it is entirely in line with the intention of the vote kick function. It is not this one alone taking the action, it is the election of the group to cut a player from the team. It is not malicious not evil nor is it against the rules, a group is permitted to set its own rules and not be dictated to by bads.



Commentary: This one would only kick for gear if it an obvious dodging of the ilvl system (queue with BLM with Tank accessories). What is in contention is kicking for poor ability and or attitude.

Except you're wrong. It doesn't have to be specifically laid out as against the ToS for SE to punish you for it. You're effectively trying to punish someone for not being up to your standards in a DF group. Majority does NOT rule in this case. That is harassment, and that is actionable. Deal with it.

The main problem is you think because you have a majority, you get to make the rules. If this wasn't SE's game you might have a point. But therein lies the problem, it's SE's game, they make the rules, not you.

DF is for random people and partial groups to come together and get something done. You don't get to waltz in and set arbitrary rules for randoms. That's what premade parties are for, not DF.

[Xayoc]

Its what I have been noticing with people on here, they win dungeons and think they are better than others because they got farther into the game than them, which they believe they are be all know all of those dungeons and because they got better gear they are better than that person who has nothing.

get over yourselves seriously I have seen crappy geared up people do way better than someone with awesome gear and i am telling you now gear does not make you better than anyone else.

Commentary: Agreed, this one has seen many perform exceedingly well despite gear not because of it and has seen many i90 players perform poorly. The discussion is on kicking for lack of performance, not being undergeared.

Except you're wrong. It doesn't have to be specifically laid out as against the ToS for SE to punish you for it. You're effectively trying to punish someone for not being up to your standards in a DF group. Majority does NOT rule in this case. That is harassment, and that is actionable. Deal with it.

The main problem is you think because you have a majority, you get to make the rules. If this wasn't SE's game you might have a point. But therein lies the problem, it's SE's game, they make the rules, not you.

Objection: Again please point out where exactly it has been posted by a developer and/or community manager where it is against the rules to vote kick for poor performance. This has not been posted yet at all despite multiple requests. Unless it is specifically prohibited it is not against the rules and is merely your opinion.

[ispano]

Objection: Again please point out where exactly it has been posted by a developer and/or community manager where it is against the rules to vote kick for poor performance. This has not been posted yet at all despite multiple requests. Unless it is specifically prohibited it is not against the rules and is merely your opinion.

I keep telling you, it doesn't have to be. You can ask and ask and ask, have no such quote and still get punished for it. What good is a quote of nothing going to do for you then? Doing what you describe, is harassment, plain and simple. SE has been clear that they would rather let wrongdoers go than punish an innocent. Kicking someone because they aren't up to your standards, in a DF group, is harassment. He didn't ask to get grouped with you, you have no proof he does it on purpose. You have the problem, YOU leave.

SE has the discretion to do whatever they wish, they don't need specific rules in this case. All they have to do is see the harassment.

It's like that line you see in pretty much any games EULA/ToS. They can ban you for ANY reason.

[Xayoc]

I keep telling you, it doesn't have to be. You can ask and ask and ask, have no such quote and still get punished for it. What good is a quote of nothing going to do for you then? Doing what you describe, is harassment, plain and simple. SE has been clear that they would rather let wrongdoers go than punish an innocent. Kicking someone because they aren't up to your standards, in a DF group, is harassment. He didn't ask to get grouped with you, you have no proof he does it on purpose. You have the problem, YOU leave.

SE has the discretion to do whatever they wish, they don't need specific rules in this case. All they have to do is see the harassment.

It's like that line you see in pretty much any games EULA/ToS. They can ban you for ANY reason.

Commentary: Correct, but as a 11 year veteran of Square-Enix games, in this case it is not a bannable offense, especially since it is not done in a harassing context. Kicking someone from a DF group because they are keeping the group from clearing the instance is not harassment if it is done politely and respectfully. Kicking under these circumstances is not harassment in any way and is therefor not actionable.

Observation: By your logic, three of the four members of a group should quit because one member is sub-par. This seems more selfish on the part of the bad than the rest of the group