New Class/Job in 2.2?

[XanderOlivieri]

On the other hand, a musketeer would complete the 2x2 look they have going right now (2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, 2 casters.... 1 ranged)

Depends on where you are looking. Class wise, this isn't true so the imbalance exists before endgame with 2 tank, 1 healer, 2 melee, 2 casters and 1 ranged. Also SE sees both Magic and Ranged DPS as the same thing so based on SE's standards we have 3 Ranged DPS.

When you extend to jobs then you get your numbers with one of the Magic Ranged DPS turning into a healer as well.

No matter how you look at it, an imbalance of character class types will exist, so honestly there is no way to balance out what we have right now, at least not with adding only 1 class/job at a time. If we were to get a large expansion with a few classes/Jobs these are possible to balance, but a patch addition possibly not.

[Kitru]

Also SE sees both Magic and Ranged DPS as the same thing so based on SE's standards we have 3 Ranged DPS.

No, they don't. DPS is divided into 3 categories: ranged (BRD), caster (BLM, SMN), and melee (MNK, DRG). You can tell by looking at the limit breaks: BRD shares its LB with healers, not with casters. Even if you want to talk "role", SE only sees DPS, which means that it lumps melee with magic and ranged. As such, there's never a case where you have Magic and Ranged considered together without the inclusion of Melee.

No matter how you look at it, an imbalance of character class types will exist, so honestly there is no way to balance out what we have right now, at least not with adding only 1 class/job at a time. If we were to get a large expansion with a few classes/Jobs these are possible to balance, but a patch addition possibly not.

Except that the devs don't have to fix the ratio all in one swoop. It's perfect fine to attempt the fix in increments (e.g. adding a new healer, then a new tank, then a new ranged DPS).

[XanderOlivieri]

No, they don't. DPS is divided into 3 categories: ranged (BRD), caster (BLM, SMN), and melee (MNK, DRG). You can tell by looking at the limit breaks: BRD shares its LB with healers, not with casters. Even if you want to talk "role", SE only sees DPS, which means that it lumps melee with magic and ranged. As such, there's never a case where you have Magic and Ranged considered together without the inclusion of Melee.

With their change to the Wolves Den, Summoner, Arcanist, Thaumaturge, Black Mage, Archer, and Bard are all lumped together as "Ranged DPS". That's where I'm pulling the SE Standards. My Summoner has a healing LB. I used it when I did Haukke Manner some time back.

[Kitru]

My Summoner has a healing LB. I used it when I did Haukke Manner some time back.

No, it doesn't. It never had it. It has the DPS LB, just like BLM.

[jomoru]

That's the hope, but I honestly can't think of any time I've seen this pan out in an actual MMO.

On the other hand what MMO hasn't had tons of DPS choices vs very few Tanking options. I am not saying adding new tanking options is going to suddenly make Tanks more common than DPS but PLENTY of people pick classes based on themes rather than just role. I mean there's a reason people want to say Thieves/rogue/ninja are a needed class when they'd just be another melee dps.

[XanderOlivieri]

No, it doesn't. It never had it. It has the DPS LB, just like BLM.

I've used it more than once, first time was right after I had gotten Summoner cause I was using Ifrit in Haukke Mannor. I was told to use my LB because the other DPS was an Archer. The two guys that were originally helping me were a bit confused by it too cause when I used my LB I healed those in the targeted area. It was a level 1 LB.

This was some time ago mind, and the Archer was KIA.

[Sylari]

^ Then you either interpreted something you saw incorrectly or experienced some sort of extremely bizarre bug. Summoners (and arcanists) have a DPS limit break and have had a DPS limit break.

On the other hand what MMO hasn't had tons of DPS choices vs very few Tanking options. I am not saying adding new tanking options is going to suddenly make Tanks more common than DPS but PLENTY of people pick classes based on themes rather than just role. I mean there's a reason people want to say Thieves/rogue/ninja are a needed class when they'd just be another melee dps.

Oh I know theme definitely matters, I'm just saying my anecdotal observations have been that even when a game starts dumping out new tanking classes frequently it doesn't significantly fix the problem long term. More often than not the people who switch to the new tank because they prefer the style were people who were playing the old tank anyways. Maybe I'm just unlucky though.

[Nahara]

I've used it more than once, first time was right after I had gotten Summoner cause I was using Ifrit in Haukke Mannor. I was told to use my LB because the other DPS was an Archer. The two guys that were originally helping me were a bit confused by it too cause when I used my LB I healed those in the targeted area. It was a level 1 LB.

This was some time ago mind, and the Archer was KIA.

The Summoner is classified as magical DPS class, and as such is given the caster LB, the same as the Black Mage. I can vouch with very clear memory going into Ifrit Hard Mode as summoner (and a few times the ONLY magical DPS job during the run) and using the Rank 3 caster LB to destroy the nails. I don't know what happened in that Haukke Manor run of yours, but a Summoner does not and has never had access to the healing LB.

[Kitru]

Oh I know theme definitely matters, I'm just saying my anecdotal observations have been that even when a game starts dumping out new tanking classes frequently it doesn't significantly fix the problem long term. More often than not the people who switch to the new tank because they prefer the style were people who were playing the old tank anyways. Maybe I'm just unlucky though.

The problem with your anecdotal evidence, however, is that in all of your experiences, the developers never adds *just* tanks; in every situation you've talked about, they added DPS *in addition* to tanks and, in fact, more often than not, they end up adding more DPS options than tanking options.

That is *not* the same with ARR. If WoW were using the same classes as ARR, if you didn't like tanking on MRD/WAR, you'd just go and use one of the two DPS specs that they provide. In ARR, if you don't like tanking on MRD/WAR, you'd have to go play something else because that's all MRD/WAR does.

That's a *huge* difference and renders whatever anecdotal evidence you might be able to conjure up irrelevant. Anecdotal evidence is *already* incredibly flimsy, but when it's anecdotal evidence about a system that has a glaring difference from what is being discussed, it's basically worthless.