Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

[Peptaru]

Heh

What was that you were saying about grasping? I'm going to bed, but ty for the fun. Your posts make me chuckle. I've said it in other posts (in various threads), I'll say it in this one. When you start attacking semantics, you're out of points to make. So it's a good a time as any for sleep.

Good night, Neverland.

[Billie21]

What is 'skill'?

skill [skil]
noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

Seems to be linked to decision making. Do you continue to cast a spell knowing something is coming up that you need to dodge or do you cancel the cast and prepare to dodge? Decision made, skill associated with dodging. Ever notice that certain members in your group die more often than others? If dodging were not a skill, they would either all die or all live. People seem to think dodging is not a skill because it is more heavily influenced by other factors. Does that suddenly make it not a skill, though? No.

Decision making is a huge part of many classes/jobs in this game. Your ability to make informed decisions is what I would consider skill. Your ability to move out of something you know is coming is, therefore, a skill.

Kettle seemed to oppose decision making to dexterity, as well as Ttan EX to other fights. Therefore, I assumed the meant something other than decision making. But thank you for trying.
She also said that you did not need to know the fight by heart to win it which would imply that you don't need to know what is coming before it actually happens.



PS: You know, it's a shame that most of your messages on this thread consist in saying you have a bigger one/demeaning people/being derisive and hypocritical, because every so often you do make some interesting and constructive posts.

[Raikki]

<snip>

For the sake of this silly argument I think it's reasonable to define a choice as a situation that has multiple correct but distinct solutions. Breaking out healer first vs. a DPS is such a choice. As are all the other choices I listed. You can simply say "everyone should do it <this> way therefor there are no choices" but I can say the same about Twintania.

[neizero]

guess you are just bad, with the latency changes it's actually easier to dodge in extreme than it was in the hard mode

[HumsterMKX]

lol gotta admit the back and forth in this thread is pretty fun to read

Ya, at least ppl are producing good stuff. Not telling ppl to go play other games and claiming their 1337 farming content runs.



DAMNIT IT JINXED IT

[Kettle]

I understand it as basically "reflex action" (where the rapidity of your reflex is tested rather than what you are doing. Please do correct me if I misunderstood.

I don't think they necessarily oppose and actually both appear in a fight like Titan. I was just trying to rationalise the difference the OP was making in comparing Twin to Titan. If I was to express my own view of the differences, it'd probably be with Twin being a traditional raid boss and Titan being a fun arcade game. What the OP is essentially saying though is 'Please only make the type of content I like', which in some respects is understandable, but in others, bollocks.

There are certainly some reflexes required on titan HM /Ex, but those reflexes often require a decision to be made at the same time. Has a Landslide been placed down unusually? Which direction have line bombs been placed? Is there anything else going on I should be aware of (healer positioning / Gaols coming?). Being able to make those decisions, react and survive is something some find harder to do (clearly - else we would not be having this discussion). Players who react and move robotically and can't react to change are those that most often die. Being able to make decisions, survive, adapt where necessary and perform a role optimally* is something some people find even more difficult to do. It requires a certain amount of dexterity, situational awareness and, as you say, reflexes. I'd certainly consider that a skill. People aren't finding this fight difficult because it is 'unfair'.

*and this is almost a pre-requisite for extreme primals, which is where I expect the problem lies.

[Hitome]

Kettle seemed to oppose decision making to dexterity, as well as Ttan EX to other fights. Therefore, I assumed the meant something other than decision making. But thank you for trying.
She also said that you did not need to know the fight by heart to win it which would imply that you don't need to know what is coming before it actually happens.

He/she is actually right. When I go to DF Titan HM, I don't think many players have any idea what they're doing. Some will drop plumes right on me and I have to move the moment they do when I'm not expecting them at all. There is always an escape route for plumes. Can you spot it in time and move/sprint to it? How about using class moves to get out of situations like that? Things like aetherial manipulation, when used right, can help you avoid many situations but require very fast reflexes. Have you ever seen a MNK shoulder tackle back onto the arena after he was clearly landslided off it? I have. Again, fast reflexes/thinking differentiate him from other MNKs. Most people cannot do this. I believe this is what he/she was referring to.

It's also a shame that you seem to harp on server delay so much. Most people are aware it exists and work with it. There is nothing wrong with the game: just something wrong with your expectations about how the servers should function.

I'm a pretty level-headed player. If people wish to use extremes in their retorts as hyperbole, I don't see why I shouldn't go the other direction and act like the elitist !@#$ they view me as anyways. Preconceived notions, misjudging a player based on a handful of posts, and all that other nonsense you know?

What was that you were saying about grasping? I'm going to bed, but ty for the fun. Your posts make me chuckle. I've said it in other posts (in various threads), I'll say it in this one. When you start attacking semantics, you're out of points to make. So it's a good a time as any for sleep.

I guess that's a good way to bow out of an argument when you have no other points. :X

Ya, at least ppl are producing good stuff. Not telling ppl to go play other games and claiming their 1337 farming content runs.

DAMNIT IT JINXED IT

Yeah...I'd hate for people to cite their farming experience in other 1337 content that is irrelevant to this discussion.

I clear twintania weekly, and even twisters aren't as punishing as landslide.

Oh darn look at that. First post, too.

[Billie21]

He/she is actually right. When I go to DF Titan HM, I don't think many players have any idea what they're doing. Some will drop plumes right on me and I have to move the moment they do when I'm not expecting them at all. There is always an escape route for plumes. Can you spot it in time and move/sprint to it? How about using class moves to get out of situations like that? Things like aetherial manipulation, when used right, can help you avoid many situations but require very fast reflexes. Have you ever seen a MNK shoulder tackle back onto the arena after he was clearly landslided off it? I have. Again, fast reflexes/thinking differentiate him from other MNKs. Most people cannot do this. I believe this is what he/she was referring to.

It's also a shame that you seem to harp on server delay so much. Most people are aware it exists and work with it. There is nothing wrong with the game: just something wrong with your expectations about how the servers should function.

I'm a pretty level-headed player. If people wish to use extremes in their retorts as hyperbole, I don't see why I shouldn't go the other direction and act like the elitist !@#$ they view me as anyways. Preconceived notions, misjudging a player based on a handful of posts, and all that other nonsense you know?

Thanks, this does make sense.


I am "harping" about delay, as you say it, because Kettle and you (as well as others) all this require fast reaction/decision making. Which cannot happen when delay comes into play, since you only get the information afterwards (when it's too late to take action). Thus completely ruining the point of the exercise (only way to overcome the trial is to learn it by heart, relying on your memory rather than reflexes and spit second decision making).

My expectations of how the server/game should function is simply that it should function at all.
For those mechanics to be enjoyable, they need to function properly (i.e: you get the information in time to react, and the server gets the info of your reaction and doesn't cancel it because his decision was already made before it happened).
If a server can not function in such a way for these mechanics to work, then the game should have different mechanics, that can work with the state of the server/network/the game's netcode/etc...


My point was that the design choices for this fight are actually "punishing", rather than "difficult" (because of the delay problem).
Again, the video that was linked (about the whole "punishing" vs "difficult") is quite eloquent (which is why it has been linked).


PS: I could give you reasons why you should not go the other direction and act like the elitist !@#$ they view you as, one of which would be to avoid ruining a potentially interesting discussion by overflowing it with petty arguments. Another would be to avoid discrediting your own arguments -but I gues that's your personal choice to make).

[Hitome]

Ok so I want you to imagine that you are watching a movie. You finish the movie and decide to watch it again. This time, however, the movie is sped up a little bit so events occur faster than what you remember the first time you watched the movie. So, when you expect something to happen in the sped up movie, the only reference point you have is your previous experience with the slower movie. Therefore, you can make an informed guess as to when something is going to happen in the sped up movie but you are not 100% sure.

I feel this is the disconnect we are experiencing. This delay is the sped up movie. I GENERALLY know what is going to happen next but, due to how the server works, I am not 100% sure of when it will happen. I have a vague idea. Even though I know something is coming up, I still need to be ready to react instantly because it could either be behind the expected value or ahead of time.

You are right when you say memory plays a part in this. But I believe you are incorrect if you say reaction is not involved at all. It's like you completely ignore the memory aspect and assume that people will have no time to react as a result.

Let me give you a great example. Familiar with Twintania? There is a section of the fight where she flies up in the air and everyone has to stack (stacking in Twintania? crazy I know). After a brief moment, a random person gets an icon over their head and you must MOVE from your spot or you will get hit by her divebomb. She does this three times and then spawns three snakes for you to deal with. You have a brief window till she comes back down and does another set of divebombs. This window is substantially larger than the first set of divebombs.

So, you have memory of this attack because you've seen it in the past. You could even make a macro or use an application to tell you when she is about to come down for the second wave of divebombs. But before all this, the method I used was to simply zoom in and look/listen for the icon to appear above the players head and then move. If your reaction was slow, you would get hit by a divebomb.

This should tell you that there are mechanics in this game that rely on reaction time. Some may argue that there aren't any in Titan because he is scripted but the fight doesn't always proceed as planned. Sometimes you need to improvise...which is what Kettle was getting at. If you memorize his pattern, great: you know how to do the fight without thinking IF everything goes perfectly. What happens when it doesn't? Can you adapt? Will you have the reactions to cover the slack when things go awry?

[ZeroRains]

et me give you a great example. Familiar with Twintania? There is a section of the fight where she flies up in the air and everyone has to stack (stacking in Twintania? crazy I know). After a brief moment, a random person gets an icon over their head and you must MOVE from your spot or you will get hit by her divebomb. She does this three times and then spawns three snakes for you to deal with. You have a brief window till she comes back down and does another set of divebombs. This window is substantially larger than the first set of divebombs.

Isn't just a wonder that the majority of people stuck on twintania just happens to be at divebombs and snakes?The only mechanic that is seemingly random if it hits you when you were sure you were out of its range? Don't even bring divebombs and try to say it's a great mechanic. Its honestly the worst phase in the entire fight, because again its not a group effort, all CAN YOU THE INDIVIDUAL DODGE THE BOMB? Titan is just 6 or 7 phases worth of divebombs instead of one.