Item Level and You

[Ri_ri]

It makes no sense to go for relic before getting full DL or better.

[Purrfectstorm]

Please don't get mired down by a specific example I cited. Focus on the meaning not the content. Fact of the matter is that gear matters. No caster was wearing parry gear if that's what you're thinking. It's true that I don't know all the details about how people were playing their assigned jobs. Generally I do rate getting the mechanics of fights down as harder than knowing the 1-2-3 rotations of a job a player has played for 50 levels though.

Also, I think it's insane to want more of a challenge from Titan HM. 1) There's 7 other players to think about. 2) He's plenty challenging enough for most people. and 3) Isn't that what Titan EM is for? I've already done Titan w/ 2 other jobs. Now I'm helping FC mates and gearing alts. I'm not looking for an insane fight to be more challenging, I'm just looking for a quick clear, as are most players who do content or help others clear content.

Furthermore, full DL does not make the fight a cakewalk anyway and my statement is based on the fact that since you're going to get DL or better gear anyway and Titan is already hard for most people, why not ease the burden on everyone, yourself and the folks who might be helping you?

Lastly, I want to say that we don't know what the Devs tested. They said WAR was fine remember? They priced housing exorbitantly. They released a game that people had trouble logging into for almost 2 weeks. I could cite more examples but it seems to me that they're human beings and they're capable of mistakes. There's rampant distrust of them here in the forums, so now you're going to say you trust that their ilevel requirements have all been tested extensively? Did they test with 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps? Did they test with some unconventional configuration? Were the dps all melee? Were they all casters? We don't know any of this. It's also possible that they found it was possible at i60 or some higher difficulty but left some room for skilled players to try the fight with less gear rather than fully limiting what we're capable of.

Maybe it was player skill that failed us. Maybe it was party composition. Maybe you question my specific example. But how can you question my central point:

You need a certain minimum level of gear to even be capable of winning a fight. I don't know the exact number. I think it's almost always going to be higher than what the Devs have set but they also want to give people a chance to try unconventional ways of winning with lesser gear. But maybe it's even lower. Maybe you can beat Titan w/ a group in all AF. That still doesn't disprove the central point that GEAR MATTERS.

If gear didn't matter, Devs wouldn't set any limits at all and neither would players doing shouts for Primals, Coil, or whatever. Gear so blatantly and obviously matters, I don't know what kind of maniac would dispute it. I like helping people but it'd be a little nice if they could help themselves a bit first, rather than creating a situation that, while perhaps not impossible, is exceedingly and unnecessarily difficult. I don't want to spend 5 hours on a fight I've already won if I can spend 1 hour (or even less) because the fight is easier? Doesn't that make sense?

I thought we didn't just want to hand people things? Isn't that the sentiment I see here all the time? Get geared or go home. That is all.

[MisakiSatomi]

I've seen people with nearly full i90 and still doesn't know how to play their class properly. Go figure...

[Sub-Xero]

Honestly, and I'm not going to go into extreme detail, but I've seen many, MANY players with AF2, Relic +1, Allagan gear etc. be TERRIBLE. I've seen pre 2.1 DPS that should've easily been able to practically solo the Demon Wall not be able to do it. Skill > gear but gear ≠ skill.

[Vhailor]

Might want to put your flame suit on. SE gave Titan HM a minimum ilvl of 57. Meaning SE feels(They likely have done it themselves) you could do it if everyone has gear at that level. Full DL is NOT needed for that particular fight. I agree that gear is important, but I think the people you ran with may not have been as good as you think they were.

SE also put Pharos Sirius as an iLevel 48 dungeon; I would pay good money to see their development team successfully complete that dungeon with gear that bad.

In response to the OP: You're right that gear is important. I don't think casual players or hardcore players would dispute this, though. I've yet to run into someone who acted as if skill was everything and gear nothing; I'd also wager that anyone who made a statement like that was simply venting and not being totally serious.

[chocomaid]

I can see this going to a tangent

Note here that most players don't use the ilvl requirements devs give, they only use it as a guideline. Players themselves find the bare minimum requirement for content through trial and error. i70 people going to -> BCB i90. 20 levels. You don't see them waiting to get full Myth gear THEN going there do you? They try.

It differs for every different encounter as well, Titan HM may have a lower or higher requirement. But basing from past clears/experience, no you don't need DL to do it.

Yes, upto a point, gear matters. But even then, (not flaming you) what exactly were you looking for in posting this thread? But in what I've just read, you want everyone to gear up, overgear it and faceroll it for free relics.

[Zumi]

You need both. When I was going armed to the teeth when the game was first out I was running a lot of jobs through Titan HM with AK gear and some in AF. Titan HM is very doable with AK gear.

[Purrfectstorm]

Honestly, and I'm not going to go into extreme detail, but I've seen many, MANY players with AF2, Relic +1, Allagan gear etc. be TERRIBLE. I've seen pre 2.1 DPS that should've easily been able to practically solo the Demon Wall not be able to do it. Skill > gear but gear ≠ skill.

I totally agree. I'm not saying that gear is the be all end all, only that there is a point where a fight isn't winnable if the gear doesn't reach some baseline. I'm not distrustful of the Devs, I just don't think there's any way that i57 could've been established as a baseline in a scientific manner in a timely fashion. It is at best a good estimate that can't account for the differences in party composition completely. I would assume since Titan is DF'ed as 2 Tank, 2 healer, 4 dps, that that's how the Devs would've tested it. That would be reasonable. However, WAR/WAR is different than WAR/PLD or PLD/PLD, and so on. I think it's foolish to think that the ilevel requirement is some absolute value that was extensively tested to the point of indisputable perfection. BUT even if it was, that would only prove that the Devs did feel there was a point that a fight would become unwinnable because of gear alone regardless of skill. The thing about skill is that a lot of unskilled players can get it, it just might take them longer than others. However, if you don't even have the tools at your disposal the game mechanics require, then no amount of skill will save you.

At the end of the day, I don't consider myself hardcore or elite (whatever that means) but I confess that I would rather help someone who's taken the time to gear.

[Purrfectstorm]

Yes, upto a point, gear matters. But even then, (not flaming you) what exactly were you looking for in posting this thread? But in what I've just read, you want everyone to gear up, overgear it and faceroll it for free relics.

Yeah basically Why not? Time matters. Why spend 10 hours wiping on something because I'm not geared rather than 9 hours 50 min getting gear I needed to get anyway, then win the fight in 10 min LOL

This is one thing that "casuals" and "hardcore" players have in common: we don't want to waste our time. Casuals because they don't have enough of it to waste and hardcore because they would rather be working on their own progression rather than wiping on a fight helping some poor scrub

There's one way to take this thread, to answer your "Why did you start this thread?" question and that's as advice to players who would like help with content. Spend some time gearing up. You're more likely to get it

[SarcasmMisser]

BLM is not best dps class against titan, the dodging nerfs your overall dps considerably.

People are fine to ask for ilevel above the minimum, it is giving yourself a bigger margin of error and it's unreasonable to trust pugs to play so well that they can preform at the minimum.