Tank-specific tips for Extreme Primals

[HoolieWho]

Except: 1. You only have 1 melee DPS. This would not work if you have more than 1. 2. You LB Chirada which usually is either 1 or 2 while if you save for 3 and LB Garuda in Eye phase, it would probably go faster.

If you have two melee, you do the same thing Versiroth said except you LB Suparna instead of Chirada. If you have three or four melee, then you probably want to explore a different strat.

I'm not convinced LB3 on Garuda makes the fight faster than LB1 on the sisters, but it is nice to have LB3 in case something goes wrong with the spiny.

[Versiroth]

If you have two melee, you do the same thing Versiroth said except you LB Suparna instead of Chirada. If you have three or four melee, then you probably want to explore a different strat.

I'm not convinced LB3 on Garuda makes the fight faster than LB1 on the sisters, but it is nice to have LB3 in case something goes wrong with the spiny.

Yeah, with two melee, you could have one on Chirada and the other on Suparna (with the MT). The melee on Suparna could LB her and then switch to Chirada (to avoid DWW) while the range finish off Suparna and then switch to Chirada. Either way, it takes away having to provoke a sister and makes the fight more melee friendly. In either strat, LBing a sister makes it to where you're able to attack Garuda for a longer time during the twisters. So, it probably equals out anyway.

[Gamemako]

Except: 1. You only have 1 melee DPS. This would not work if you have more than 1. 2. You LB Chirada which usually is either 1 or 2 while if you save for 3 and LB Garuda in Eye phase, it would probably go faster.

Not to mention that the as long as both sisters are alive, they receive a defense buff, and when you have to swap with both sisters alive, your DPS gets absolutely clobbered by buff stacks.

Though, it's worth noting that I don't recommend using the LB during Eye phase. It pierces the Lithified Flesh buff, so you can use caster LB during tornado phase to nuke both Garuda and Suparna at once, simultaneously reducing risk of a wipe and boosting DPS.

Yeah, with two melee, you could have one on Chirada and the other on Suparna (with the MT). The melee on Suparna could LB her and then switch to Chirada (to avoid DWW) while the range finish off Suparna and then switch to Chirada.

Don't add moving parts to a fight. Follow the KISS principle. The only good reason to split DPS on Chirada and Suparna is that your DPS is too high in the first place and you want to slow down Chirada's death.

//EDIT:

You all could try the most melee friendly stragedy the official stragedy which is the triangle method, same dps requirements as the American version *ie double wicked*

None of this is true. It is not the "official strategy" and it is harder on the DPS than double WW. You get DPS reduction from stacks as well as lost positional abilities. Almost all of the methods involve using melee LB1 here because the sisters have 4 stacks after the jump. A poorly-geared group will fail this method 100% of the time due to DPS requirements being too damn high.

[Cessna]

None of this is true. It is not the "official strategy" and it is harder on the DPS than double WW. You get DPS reduction from stacks as well as lost positional abilities. Almost all of the methods involve using melee LB1 here because the sisters have 4 stacks after the jump. A poorly-geared group will fail this method 100% of the time due to DPS requirements being too damn high.

Reread my post, you only saw triangle method.

The tanks swap positions when the sisters disappear so the stacks do NOT build. Thus the dps requirements are thusly the same.

[bokchoykn]

None of this is true. It is not the "official strategy" and it is harder on the DPS than double WW. You get DPS reduction from stacks as well as lost positional abilities. Almost all of the methods involve using melee LB1 here because the sisters have 4 stacks after the jump. A poorly-geared group will fail this method 100% of the time due to DPS requirements being too damn high.

I agree.

The triangle strategy is a significant compromise to DPS because melee can't do rear/flank attacks and casters have to stop casting to dodge Slipstreams.

The benefit is tanks not having to deal with double WW and melee doesn't have to deal with WW at all. However, these two can be easily handled by having Tanks predict double WW with major cooldowns and having melee actually understand the fight and not be in melee range when WW occurs.

[Versiroth]

However, these two can be easily handled by having Tanks predict double WW with major cooldowns and having melee actually understand the fight and not be in melee range when WW occurs.

Good luck with that. I think you, Gamemako and Lemon all down these in statics and simply don't realize how often melee and tanks get instakilled to WW/DWW. Your method is fine for an experience group that knows what they're doing, sure. But, again, good luck with pugs. I don't have a static, personally, so I'm trying to figure out a strat were any group could go in and have a great chance. Also, we successfully pulled off the strat were one melee LBs Chirada and all range stay on Suparna and it worked out just fine.

People have downed this fight in a multitude of ways, yet you three act like only one strategy is feasible.


Also...

The triangle strategy is a significant compromise to DPS because melee can't do rear/flank attacks and casters have to stop casting to dodge Slipstreams.

In this strat, the melee LBs Chirada each time as well and she dies quick. Lack of positional attacks and having to dodge one slipstream doesn't matter when she dies so fast to LB.

[Lemon8or]

Good luck with that. I think you, Gamemako and Lemon all down these in statics and simply don't realize how often melee and tanks get instakilled to WW/DWW.

I personally almost never done it with static. I'd beaten all 3 for at least 3 weeks before anyone I know did so all PUGs. All my rings have been farmed with PUG group whether when I main tank, off tank or DPS as monk or black mage. My method involves: 1. Tell everyone OT is picking up Spiny and Chirada and focus Chirada. 2. Tell the melees to wait till OT provoke Suparna or at least wait till WW goes off. That's it. I even have macros for: running into Spiny bubble, running out to avoid feathers, provoke spiny and HOLY WTFBBQ WW is coming (I push it about 5 seconds before they go off).
I didn't act like one strategy is viable. In fact, as long as you understand the mechanics, any groups can beat it. Problem is: some people don't so your strategy is not going to make up for that.
Edit: to elaborate on the triangle strategy, bard would be the ideal dps to pull hate on Chirada. They just have to blow everything without Quelling Strike. If DPS is lacking, you can use melee LB on it. As I said 3 LB1s are not as powerful as 1 LB3 but whatever keeps you alive. Also the position changes up a bit. OT and the DPS will be on opposite sides to keep the sister far apart while the MT has garuda in the middle. If you don't kill Chirada before they switch places, the tanks would have to walk through the tornadoes or suffer stacks so in essence, it's not that much better.

[Gamemako]

Good luck with that. I think you, Gamemako and Lemon all down these in statics and simply don't realize how often melee and tanks get instakilled to WW/DWW.

I often do DF groups, actually. Not PF, DF. The tank dying to double WW is very rare and usually cleared up in one or two mistakes because it's really self-explanatory. Wipes from Slipstream are more common than double WW deaths. Hell, I see tanks more often screwing up OT job than MT job because they don't properly set aggro on Chirada or the spiny, resulting in either the spiny heading back to MT or Chirada heading to the healers.

[bokchoykn]

snip

You're making some pretty bold assumptions on the three of us. I've been doing Garuda since day one of 2.1. Countless successful and unsuccessful groups: Premade groups, learning groups, PF and DF, you name it. You know nothing about my previous experience with this fight. Don't make assumptions. You don't know what you're talking about.



If you're "trying to figure out a strat were any group could go in and have a great chance", you shouldn't be so closed-minded about other strategies. You're doing exactly what you're accusing us of doing.

So, let's simply discuss each strategy objectively.

The triangle tanking method is a compromise to DPS any way you spin it. You say that it's not because you can melee LB1 Chirada. Do you think that actually changes the fact that it's a DPS compromise? You're doing less damage no matter what. Every strategy has access to Limit Breaks. In fact, it's better to use caster LB on all three sisters because it does more overall damage.

If you've done Garuda with inexperienced groups, you'd realize how often the group fails to meet the DPS requirements and the Sisters phase ends with Suparna alive. You should also realize that maximizing DPS becomes exponentially more important any time there are adds and secondary targets involved.

What I don't get is that you don't trust 2 people (MT and melee) to properly anticipate Wicked Wheel but you trust 4 people to dodge Slipstream and put out good enough DPS to make up for the DPS loss from using a naturally low-DPS strategy?

There are pros and cons to each strategy. And if you're trying to find an idiot-proof strategy where none of the players are required to know when certain moves happen and don't have to learn the actual encounter, there is none. It takes skill to clear content. This is the nature of video games.

[Versiroth]

What I don't get is that you don't trust 2 people (MT and melee) to properly anticipate Wicked Wheel but you trust 4 people to dodge Slipstream and put out good enough DPS to make up for the DPS loss from using a naturally low-DPS strategy?

It's not about trusting anyone. It's about trying strategies that avoid instant kill possibilities. In your method, if the MT messes up his CD timing, he dies and the party wipes. Also, if there's a melee, and they don't watch for WW, they'll die in one hit. Also, the MT having to keep track of two slipstreams, watch for DWW and watch spiny stacks is a ton of responsibility for a single player. Sure, the strategy works, but so does some of the others, like the triangle one, without the possibility of wiping due to the tank being instantly killed.