Man up Tanks!

[SirTaint]

With the new roulette systems (and rewards) I am much more patient with newer players. 30 minutes for 70-90 myth is never a bad use of time.

I always do join a group is progress and have had excellent success. I have 2 wins in Pharos Sirius and have only engaged Siren in that zone lol.

[Kitru]

I don't think its ok to just join a group be unhappy and bounce because you know you'll be able to get another insta-queue (after timer anyway)

I'll agree that there is a certain (sub-)cultural impetus placed upon tanks to stick around under conditions that other classes would likely leave under because of our position as the, generally, most desired role: we're supposed to be more generous because we're gifted with a special position. It provides an interesting modification to the normal cost/benefit analysis that goes into the decision whether to leave (which is made even if it's entirely subconscious or emotional rather than analytical).

From a perfectly rational viewpoint, all classes would have roughly the same cost/benefit analysis because the opportunity cost is the same for every single role: 30 minutes of DF downtime. Ideally, because of the new duty roulette, variation in base timers could potentially be viewed as relatively constant (or at least minimized) because the bonus for needed adventurers provides people an obvious signal as well as reward to act as an impetus to join, so one would assume that the 30 minutes that a tank loses would be weighed on the same basis as the 30 minutes that a DPS would lose. It doesn't work out like this, however, because people aren't perfectly rational and self interested (economists, humans are not homo economicus; we're homo sapiens; more of you need to realize this), and there are two potential deviations that could describe the thought processes of actual people, though I'm not sure if one is more "correct" than the other or if they both exist in the population but there exists a discrepancy in their commonality in the population (i.e. some people proscribe to the first whereas others proscribe to the second).

From one viewpoint, the tank has a higher opportunity cost because the proportional increase to their wait time is many times greater than the proportional increase to a healer's or DPS's: if a tank can expect to have a wait time that is, at worst, 5 minutes but a healer can expect 15 minutes and a DPS a full 45 minutes, a tank experiences a 600% increase in weight time whereas a healer experiences a 200% increase and a DPS experiences a mere 66% increase. As such, 30 minutes of enforced downtime seems so much worse to a tank than it does to a DPS so they place higher value on the opportunity cost of leaving than the other roles do.

From another, the tank as a much *lower* opportunity cost because their end wait time is still lower and, because the variability is negligible (tanks will very rarely wait more than 5 minutes for a queue pop, even if they're not the needed role, and it's virtually nonexistent a vast majority of the time so the average is maybe 30 seconds), a tank has a reasonably strong estimate of when it will be able to queue up again. DPS and healers, on the other hand, end up with higher end wait times that are also extremely variable such that, even if the averages are the 15 and 45 mentioned before, the variation creates much larger windows, say, 5-20 and 30-60 for healers and DPS,, respectively. Because of the increased variability, which is almost universally viewed in a negative light, and higher end result, which is what people tend to think of instead of the increased comparative cost, the psychological opportunity cost, as opposed to a more rational one, becomes a great deal higher.

Both of these do still ignore the previously mentioned cultural impetuses that are likely attached to given roles, which is something of a difficult sociological question because the value of it depends heavily upon whether people are cognizant or subconsciously aware of the assumed demand and how strongly the pressure to follow it is given your peer group. The fractional and disconnected nature of the subculture of ARR (which is itself a subculture of a subculture of a subculture) thanks to the general isolation derived from separate servers (the only time you interact from people on a different server is through duty finder and whoever you interact with there will likely never interact with you or anyone you ever know again, at least in a sense that their identity impacts the other) as well as the further isolation within the servers themselves from relatively small groups forming relatively iconoclastic socialization groups (i.e. people interact with FCs and LSs to a *vastly* greater extent than their server as a whole, so you that server doesn't even really work as a reasonably definition of the group of people within which you exist, in much the same way that people in New York City are more easily identified, socioculturally, with the borough or neighborhood in which they live and/or work instead of the city as a whole), means that you have a much larger number of groups creating their set of relative values for given in-game behaviors than you would think. The variation, even when you go down to the server level to get a reasonably low estimate number of potential social groups, means that you can never really expect someone to have the same values governing their decision to leave a group that you do even if you *can* expect to see and potentially interact with that person that again.

All of this is probably way more than anyone expected to arise our of this topic, not to mention more than most people even think about, but it's an interesting aspect of the gaming subculture to think about and can potentially allow you to empathize (or at least *understand*) the reasons why someone might leave early or stick it out.

Personally, I tend to be more inclined to kick someone who's being harassing or incompetent (and holding the group back) than leave the group itself: I would rather deal with what I identify as the problem directly rather than screw over two-to-six people just so that I don't have deal with the one that's pissing me off. Even then, if the vote fails, sometimes I will stick around because of my desire to not screw over those 2 people (who apparently *aren't* annoyed by the individual as I am). I almost always leave only when the group is unwilling to get rid of the person that offends me (though, sometimes, if it's readily apparent that the people in the group already know each other or are getting along inordinately well, I'll leave before ever voting because I recognize that the vote would be almost guaranteed to end in that person's favor instead of mine). I'm not sure how common *that* behavioral construct is, but it's the one that I adhere to (and generally recommend that my friends do as well).

[Enfarious]

I share your general sentiments. So long as a party is making an honest effort to do well, and is not either A) making 0 progress; or B) slipping into 10 year old style mudslingers; I'll stay til the bitter end. I've timed out of more things than I've actually quit out of, and actually prefer the company of people that remember that they too were once in non-i90 gear. Hell between coil and CT, and maybe a couple high level roulette I'm myth capped by Tuesday night anyway. It's not like I'm going for tomes, or anything really, I'm doing most things in game to help people, or cause I'm bored w/ fishing.

I think it's really sad that there are so many players at this point in the games life-cycle, that have already gone into the "I've always been in capped gear/levels. Why aren't you?"

[Raezaiel]

I don't know what you are talking about. I've never had a tank bail on me.
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...I only play paladin.

[Wadoka]

I've never yet bailed on a DF party. It's not in my make-up to do so.

I think I've had a healer ragequit on me once, when I was too slow gathering the very first mob in Halatali on my first time in Halatali. If so, that was one impatient healer - and we proceeded to finish the run with just 3 party members, with the Arcanist providing healing.

If I ever propose a kick vote, it will be because we've got someone who chooses "need" every time for loot grabs. THAT's bad sportsmanship, that is...

[IndigoHawk]

Please don't make generalized criticisms about people who play a specific role. There are plenty of good and bad tanks, just like other roles.

A couple days ago in DF some tank raged at me because they thought a bad ring meant I wouldn't be able to help tank, even though my average ilvl for the dungeon was fine.
Yesterday I met a tank who kept a positive attitude while we died countless times helping new people learn and get through Hydra.
Today I worked with a couple DF Garuda EX tanks who worked on strategy with the group and died over and over as people learned the fight. No complaints or rage quits.

In terms of opportunity cost of leaving, another thing to think about is that if you play as a tank or a healer, you (often) have significantly more control over whether the party succeeds or not. If you are a good tank, you don't have to deal with bad tanks. If you are a good healer, you don't have to deal with bad healers. If a group has a good tank and a good healer, it usually only needs acceptable dps to get through the challenge.

So, if you're a dps and you encounter a bad tank or healer, it may make sense to bail. Even though you'll have to wait longer for a new group, your current group doesn't have a good chance to succeed. If you're a good healer or tank, it's not worth it as much to drop since the party has a decent chance just because you're in it.

[Nalou]

I just hate these bullcrap threads where everyone says how much they are great players and how as a tank we should sacrifice for every idiot in this game, and how they never leave parties and always help others... /sick of all this.
I rarely drop from runs, but I sometimes do. It happens cause I'm in a hurry, cause I'm in a bad mood, cause some people are really stupid, cause people lied on team formation tool, cause people get into Omega run with underlevelled gear ... etc etc...

I think the best reason to leave a group is when I try to communicate with a player that doesn't even respond in party chat, but there are other reasons too.

[JeTaisNoobie]

I would only leave a group if I experience really nasty players. Just yesterday I had the luxury of tanking Garuda ex mode. In the first pull, I dragged Garuda to the wall. After we wiped on that run, our dragoon's first sentence was "noob, don't drag it to the wall". I mean there's no correct or incorrect way of pulling Garuda, unless of course I decide to introduce Garuda to my teammates up close and personal, so why handle the situation like that?

I would've easily complied if he had spoken nicely, it didn't have to be polite, just well mannered.

[wonka11]

I have encountered a lot of parties in the duty roulette where tanks have just bailed on parties, mostly in wp, for no reason. None of these parties were a problem, most were a pleasure to run with. I always hit join pt in progress because a tank who bails in the middle is a pain in the ass and i can fill in np.

You are the most desired class, War or Pld. Man up and stop bailing on new players. Most either need to learn or are leveling alt classes that need gear. Stop Giving tanks a bad name.

Tanks don't usually leave for no reason, they do however leave for the following reasons:

DPS/Healer is not prepared or properly geared (ilvl system is still a joke, no one in pieces of af gear should be queuing for HK HM or any of the tougher dungeons)
DPS/Healer does not know the fights and as selfish individuals expect to be carried despite having a pletheora of both free and easy to access sources that will teach them what they need to know quickly
DPS/Healer disregard fight mechanics or don't bother dodging them and as a result make the party suffer and wipe
DPS/Healer is poor at playing their class because they have not taken the time to learn it


Just as we are expected to be good tanks, know our class, the positions, and the fight, it is equally expected of all players and in all roles to do the same. One thing that enrages me a lot about the younger generation of players that are also present in this game, is they believe they can join an instance, any fight, without having first prepared themselves properly be it through their gear or knowledge of the fight. As I've said, there are too many resources available to give any logical explanation as to why you do not know the fight despite it being your first time, nor your class. Any objection to the contrary is selfish, shortsighted, and arbitrary.

You want us to stay in groups? Run the proper instances multiple times to get within a decent ilvl range before you queue for harder things. I have a Blm/Smn/Sch/Monk/Warrior i70lvl or higher, and I geared each by starting and farming the appropriate ilvl dungeons (CM runs, lots of CM runs) before I attempted harder things because I wanted to carry my weight and provide an enjoyable experience for my other team mates while not wasting everyone's time or dragging out the instance.

Its a mark of common courtesy and speaks volumes about the type of player you are; it decides if you're simply a selfish scrub or a skillful participant.

TL : DR they left because your party was bad.

[EvilHippie]

Wonka11 Some people learn by doing not watching a youtube video.

Reading most of these posts about people justifying bailing are missing the point. My op was about tanks bailing in the first minute, or after first boss in wp or ak. With perfectly good parties that i had no trouble completing dungeons with. Man up if its an under geared pt or inexperienced. Don't justify being an elitest douchebag.

Edit: not calling wonka a douchebag, I mean in general.