Why leave your shield at home!?

[Wooba]

If they designed GLA with the idea that it would only be capable of being a Tank, then they shouldn't let you customize your GLA with skills outside of the GLA tree. What possible benefit could a GLA get from any skills outside of the GLA and MRD tree? ARC is pointless, LNC is pointless, PGL is pointless save 1 ability. So why not just lock all our skills to set specific standards? Why even let us customize if the point is "This is your Role, and if you try to do anything else you can't."

Sounds more to me like SE needs to make customization of classes more worthwhile. A GLA should be able to DD, and if they can't, it is because of flaws with the battle system and customization system. GLA isn't even the best Tank. So what is the purpose of a GLA if they're not even good for Tanking?

[Solipse]

If they designed GLA with the idea that it would only be capable of being a Tank, then they shouldn't let you customize your GLA with skills outside of the GLA tree. What possible benefit could a GLA get from any skills outside of the GLA and MRD tree? ARC is pointless, LNC is pointless, PGL is pointless save 1 ability. So why not just lock all our skills to set specific standards? Why even let us customize if the point is "This is your Role, and if you try to do anything else you can't."

Sounds more to me like SE needs to make customization of classes more worthwhile. A GLA should be able to DD, and if they can't, it is because of flaws with the battle system and customization system. GLA isn't even the best Tank. So what is the purpose of a GLA if they're not even good for Tanking?

It's not an idea - that's the way it works _right now_.

You can add (lessened) support for other things from outside your current tree for the most part. You can be a Melee DD gladiator if you want by adding lancer and pugilist abilities, but in general, you're going to be less effective than you would be if you were a lancer or a pugilist. You have to play the class that does the job you want to primarily do to be effective.

I mean, just look at the damage difference in the weapons.

Aeolian Scimitar +3 : ~165 damage.
Champion's Lance +3 : ~203 damage.

That tells you right there that anything you do as a gladiator is going to be 80% of the effectiveness damage wise as doing that same thing as a lancer. To reiterate, this is how the game works -right now-

If you can forgo a shield as a gladiator to use a two handed weapon or two one handed weapon, what would be the point of playing a lancer? Classes are already so ridiculously customizable, even asking for that is quibbling over a triviality.

You already have the option of playing a gladiator using a 2h weapon... play a lancer with gladiator abilities. The only difference is that you visually use a spear instead of visually using a sword. Sure, you have less defense, too, but if you are wanting to play a warrior using a 2h weapon and no shield, then you're already wanting to play a class that does more damage for lower defense. If you're wanting to play a warrior using a 2h weapon, does damage as well as a lancer, has super high defense AND super high hp, then I think you're probably asking for something that's a little unfair.

That kind of wow-flation never ends. In two months you'll have lancers who are able to wield a two handed spear in each hand so that they do more damage than the two handed weapon warriors, then you'll have the warriors arguing that they should be able to use two two handed swords at the same time, then the lancers will be arguing that they should be to quadruple wield spears or something else silly. Unlike wow, you can play any class without rerolling or loosing your work in your character - if you want to play melee dps, switch to lancer.

[Wooba]

No one said they wanted GLA to be Archer OP. We just don't want to be shoveled into a mold. You can't call it customization if every GLA is going to be the same type of character. As is GLA is the worst class in the game. Everything we can do, another class does better. Most all classes get better Damage, MRD gets more HP, and MRD is the goto Tank for most NM parties. GLA are only useful for Single Mob tanking. A MRD is better because a MRD can hit all the targets with their AOE, and their high HP keeps them alive longer than most GLA. If this is the case, why bother with a GLA Tank? We are ineffective in all our roles.

I've invested time into my GLA, and your solution is "Rank another job." That is weak. All other classes get to customize their class using any abilities from any class they want. GLA are limited to tanking abilities only because it was the mold they were shafted with, while MRD gets the freedom to do whatever the hell they want.

[wind]

MRD don't have sentinel, aegis II, deflection, block, and you're saying they live longer? Even if one leveled up glad for sentinel and relied purely on parries to negate dmg they still wouldn't beat us when it comes to dmg mitigation. Having 100% dmg nullified with aegis II alone makes us better, thats 15secs(depending on shield) every minute.

Now I guess you could try to have the argument since MRD can hit more then 1 they are better aoe tankers but even then. Its not difficult to rotate taunt/voke + wardrum and warmonger. This is just to dispute that our 'role' as tank is inefficient and weaker then MRD, which it is strongly not.

As for dmg ya we got shafted. But it 'could' change if we're allowed to branch off into warrior or thief if the ideas of some are correct with SE's changes to classes.

[Wooba]

Keep in mind that MRD also has a large HP pool, and is capable of wearing the same tanking gear we can, minus the shield. They get more DPS, and can easily hold hate just as well. They also receive full benefit from Defender II and have great Emnity generation.

Sure, Deflection and Aegis Boon II are good skills, but with a 60 second cooldown and 15 second activation time you can't say Aegis Boon II alone makes GLA better tanks. You would need to use the 3 skills you mentioned all at once to have a chance of completely negating all damage you receive from an NM. And you can only do it once every 60 seconds for 15 seconds. Sure it is nice, but that doesn't mean MRD Tanks die without these skills. They have a lot more HP than GLAs do with Capped Vit. I think that more than makes up for 15 second damage negation.

[wind]

Having block with defender I will match up closely with MRD's defender II.
(Glad's can also lvl all the way up for defender II)

Foresight will eat a hit every 30secs, aegis eats 4 hits roughly on avg every 45secs.
2350HP on my glad (would need #'s of a MRD's hp) to vs it
Glad has access to warmonger for AOE tanking, MRD's dont have access to wardrum(30sec aoe taunt)

Lastly, more HP doesn't equal mitigation. MRD are good tanks don't get me wrong but they wont beat a glad as its one of the few classes that is actually unique in its role to all the others.

[Rentahamster]

MRDs and PGLs can be good tanks too, yes, but not as good as a dedicated tanking GLD.

If you've got a glut of mages and can handle spamming cure over and over again, then sure, use a MRD tank, but otherwise it's just easier to let the GLD do it.

[Wooba]

And that is the issue. This game is about Class Customization. Where is the customization with GLA? Putting on different taunts? GLA has 1 role and 1 role only, while MRD and PGL have two roles, DD and Tank.

Here are the HP values from a R50 MRD in my Linkshell with 174 vit Base: 2383 (2595) Second number is obviously with gear. My base HP with 174 Vit at R49 is 2119. At R50 I'll probably get close to 2200 HP base. Even in full Plate, my HP will likely still be only close to the Base HP of a R50 MRD with capped Vit.

The only area a GLA is better than a MRD is in Defense. As far as I know Shield stats only come into effect if you are guarding, as when you equip a Shield your stats don't change. This means if you keep your shield up constantly, you will take less damage than a MRD.

Where MRD beats out the GLA is the fact that they can basically DD and Tank at the same time. MRD has a lot of debuffs, and Maim can let a MRD do some extra damage while tanking from the front. I've seen a setup for a MRD that had them casting Debuffs on the enemy via THM spells, as well as WS debuffs, and self-buffs. That MRD was easily the most damaging person in the party (except for maybe the Archers) and he was also Tanking. GLA are limited to Tanking only. We could try to hybrid tank it, but it likely wouldn't go well since our damage is pathetic.

I think we should agree to disagree. It is likely a matter of preference, individual setup and what you are fighting. GLA will be better in some situations, MRD will be better in others, and PGL will be better in the rest. A lot of the time it just seems like the role of the GLA is easily replaced by another class.

MRDs and PGLs can be good tanks too, yes, but not as good as a dedicated tanking GLD.

If you've got a glut of mages and can handle spamming cure over and over again, then sure, use a MRD tank, but otherwise it's just easier to let the GLD do it.

GOLDSMITH TANK FTW!

[Rentahamster]

GOLDSMITH TANK FTW!

"Bold Synthesis" generates crazy amounts of enmity, didn't you know that?

[Solipse]

And that is the issue. This game is about Class Customization. Where is the customization with GLA? Putting on different taunts? GLA has 1 role and 1 role only, while MRD and PGL have two roles, DD and Tank.

Here are the HP values from a R50 MRD in my Linkshell with 174 vit Base: 2383 (2595) Second number is obviously with gear. My base HP with 174 Vit at R49 is 2119. At R50 I'll probably get close to 2200 HP base. Even in full Plate, my HP will likely still be only close to the Base HP of a R50 MRD with capped Vit.

The only area a GLA is better than a MRD is in Defense. As far as I know Shield stats only come into effect if you are guarding, as when you equip a Shield your stats don't change. This means if you keep your shield up constantly, you will take less damage than a MRD.

That's not entirely true, though. Gladiators get access to great utility from sentinel like shield bash (damage + stun). They also have huge amounts of clickie defensive abilities to mitigate damage. Now add in the amazing synergy between Rage of Halone, Cadence and Still Precision/other defense lowering abilities. Lower your defense as much as possible, load up cadence and other AP boosts and drop a rage of halone.

Further, as far as the hp vs defense issue, defense is far more effective than hp in almost every case. Reason being is exactly what you noted - shield blocks reduce damage by a crazy amount. Using a scutum, with a 99% block chance, and using the glad ability to double the length of guard, you reduce damage by a percentile many times greater than the hp delta between glad and maruder.