Suggestion of Paladin "utility and fun" improvement

[Kitru]

Move RoH's Str debuff to Riot Blade. Now PLD's has an decision to make.

If you do that, either PLD enmity generation gets tanked or their survivability gets reduced because their survivability model is built around the assumption of that debuff and enmity model is built around the assumption of RoH spam. Your change would require a dramatic increase in PLD enmity generation, especially given that just buffing RoH to compensate for the assumption of 2 GCDs of low enmity every 8 GCDs would just render RoH spam disgustingly overpowered. WAR manages to mix in the low enmity combos because of Maim, which allow the mixed rotations (BB>BB>SE and BB>BB>SP) to generate more enmity than straight BB spam. If PLDs were changed as such, they would need something similar to compensate, which is actually one of those times when it's *appropriate* to say that the two classes would be homogenized because the devs would be making them start playing the same.

[Kitru]

I've tried this thread like 10 times, no one will agree...they're all fanboys. Somehow, someway, people started to believe that 15 mitigation skills is fun game design.

We're not fanboys (well, most of us aren't). We're people that recognize that PLD and WAR were built differently. PLD is *designed* around being the simple tank, which is why it has straightforward abilities with no real opportunity cost, a single major combo that is just spammed ad nauseum, a bunch of CDs that do pretty much the same thing, and a laughably simple secondary resource. WAR is *designed* around being a more complicated tank, which is why it has multiple abilities with opportunity costs that have to be factored in, multiple combos that are supposed to be nested, a broad range of effects on its CDs, and a secondary resource that actually requires planning to use properly with opportunity costs when using them.

If you don't like PLD's simplicity of play, stop playing it. Continuing to do so would be like complaining about BRDs having too many off-GCD attacks and yet continuing to play it. If you want more complexity, there's another tank job waiting for you. If the only reason you're playing PLD is because you always play PLD, stop complaining about the way PLD plays because you care less about how you're playing than *what* you're playing.

Once the devs add more tanking options, you'll have even *less* room to complain because there will be more points on the tanking continuum to use as references of comparison, and, personally, I can't wait for it because it will just mean that people who complain about how PLD (or WAR) plays will have all the less reason to do so.

[Enfarious]

Gamemeko did an absolutely stellar job of it here.

As someone that really does play both, and doesn't mind either, except that in 1.xx I was forced to WAR in any/every PUG for any/anything I did ...

Arguments of post-patch mitigation and eHP:
Like virtually every other comparison that one appears (I may have just missed it) to have left out the DR debuff from WAR, it is a straight DR of 10%, which is 1/2 of what a PLD gets out of Shield Oath...
Just sayin': The "almost dead even as they are" arguments all fail to account for that. Which more or less means all the "almost dead even as they are" arguments are wrong. WAR actually has an advantage ...

More to the OP:
PLD really does need a finishing hit to the Riot Blade combo, something that can be used in OTing situations as more and more the tank swapping is proving to be a thing, PLD are going to get more and more edged out for damage output reasons. Doesn't have a huge impact on most of us if we're willing to play both, but as it stands WAR has distinct advantages now. 2x WAR will outperform PLD/WAR and even more so PLD/PLD until PLD can start bringing some actual damage to the table.

Onto enmity in AoE situations:
WAR far outdoes PLD, yes, flash is nearly limitless if you Riot Blade in the middle of things, but a WAR that bottoms out TP still has flash, and they've generated far more enmity in the same amount of time as a PLD w/ just Flash to work with.

In the argument of designed to be easy peasy:
Boring design is bad design, and PLD is rather boring. WAR is more to do and more to keep track of, PLD doesn't need to not have those things to be different, it just has to have different things. The OP presented a way to use a different thing. WAR got patched into a more PLD-like tank, why not the other way around?

It's all ok, in the end 2.2 will see PLD back in the top spot and WARs will be calling for changes again, just like before 2.1 WAR were calling for change and PLDs were saying it's not needed lol. Until 2.2 PLDs will continue to call for change while WARs say it's fine as is. Nobody wants their "favorite" job to be the underdog.

[Nalou]

If you want to make everything even, then I think paladins could make some use of a second combo that doesn't generate aggro, so they could use it while offtanking.

I'm a warrior, when I tank I use BB which is only designed for damage/hate and SE/SP, and when I offtank I only use SP.
So it would be quite logical that a Paladin have two combos, RoH should only do damage/hate, and a second combo that doesn't generate aggro and gives the Str debuff.

[glen7187]

As someone that really does play both, and doesn't mind either, except that in 1.xx I was forced to WAR in any/every PUG for any/anything I did ...

Arguments of post-patch mitigation and eHP:
Like virtually every other comparison that one appears (I may have just missed it) to have left out the DR debuff from WAR, it is a straight DR of 10%, which is 1/2 of what a PLD gets out of Shield Oath...
Just sayin': The "almost dead even as they are" arguments all fail to account for that. Which more or less means all the "almost dead even as they are" arguments are wrong. WAR actually has an advantage ...

This was posted later in Gamemako's thread:

You are talking about two different things, both of which are represented in the first post. The first is effective HP, which determines whether or not you survive the big hit, like a critical attack and Death Sentence. This does not concern healing at all, just whether you make it out the other side while still standing. The second is mitigation, which is represented in all of the graphs aside from the first one. Those describe how much your tank's abilities reduce the amount of healing the healers have to throw out to keep you alive over time. In each one of those graphs, the benefits of both Shield Oath and Defiance are properly represented (and yes, Shield Oath offers a larger effective bonus than Defiance).

I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

[Zoomie]

I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

She is referring to the 10% DR from storms path I think. I can't say for sure whether or not that was included in this math you posted. That being said I also don't know if the RoH debuff was added.

Regardless Enfarious is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure it matters.

[Kitru]

Boring design is bad design, and PLD is rather boring.

Some people prefer simple. The devs provided two different levels of complexity, which is a good thing. If you want to complain about PLD being boring but don't want to swap to WAR, it's because you care more about the class you're playing as opposed to how your class plays, so you're really just making arbitrary demands based upon your class rather than actual game design constructs.

It's all ok, in the end 2.2 will see PLD back in the top spot and WARs will be calling for changes again, just like before 2.1 WAR were calling for change and PLDs were saying it's not needed lol. Until 2.2 PLDs will continue to call for change while WARs say it's fine as is. Nobody wants their "favorite" job to be the underdog.

The WAR changes were *balance* changes and PLD and WAR are incredibly well balanced right now. Any changes to mechanics that affect tanking directly are going to end up breaking the balance that currently exists (and I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone that understands both classes that thinks that they're *not* super well balanced at the moment). The most that PLD can expect us some QoL changes and *maybe* OT changes that allow them to do damage without generating gobloads of enmity. Neither class is the underdog at the moment.

[Enfarious]

This was posted later in Gamemako's thread:
I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

Not once is it mentioned, Defiance is mentioned, Shield Oath is mentioned, Storm's is not. If I really did miss it, then ok, I don't believe I did though.

She is referring to the 10% DR from storms path I think. I can't say for sure whether or not that was included in this math you posted. That being said I also don't know if the RoH debuff was added.

Regardless Enfarious is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure it matters.

RoH is a str debuff, not a straight DR, where am I wrong exactly? Seriously, I actually would like to know.

Some people prefer simple. The devs provided two different levels of complexity, which is a good thing. If you want to complain about PLD being boring but don't want to swap to WAR, it's because you care more about the class you're playing as opposed to how your class plays, so you're really just making arbitrary demands based upon your class rather than actual game design constructs.

The WAR changes were *balance* changes and PLD and WAR are incredibly well balanced right now. Any changes to mechanics that affect tanking directly are going to end up breaking the balance that currently exists (and I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone that understands both classes that thinks that they're *not* super well balanced at the moment). The most that PLD can expect us some QoL changes and *maybe* OT changes that allow them to do damage without generating gobloads of enmity. Neither class is the underdog at the moment.

I said at the outset, I play both, I'm fine with both. I simply see WAR being the optimal selection now.

I didn't say a thing about actual tanking mechanics either, just that a proper damage combo, one that doesn't include enmity, should exist. It should get us on par w/ a DD WAR, nothing more, nothing less.

Super well balanced, I'll argue, WAR can tank everything a PLD can, PLD can not hit the damage output a WAR can. That is imbalance.

[glen7187]

PLD are in blue, WAR are in orange. Standard eHP stuff: no random effects count, only perfectly-reliable bonuses. There are no differences in defense for which to account, and I accidentally left my crystal ball on the other forums and can't tell you the relative value of SP and RoH debuffs.

Sorry I didn't realize you were talking about Storms Path (I honestly don't run WAR I run PLD), he mentions it here which means he most likely included it in the calculations but didn't give the values in the post itself.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

Not once is it mentioned, Defiance is mentioned, Shield Oath is mentioned, Storm's is not. If I really did miss it, then ok, I don't believe I did though.

He does mention it, but not in a way that quantifies them, here:

There are no differences in defense for which to account, and I accidentally left my crystal ball on the other forums and can't tell you the relative value of SP and RoH debuffs.

Yes, I know its a STR debuff and not a straight DR. But both tanks take advantage of both debuffs in an 8+ man party, so its pretty moot. For 4-man content the difference is negligible.