Suggestion of Paladin "utility and fun" improvement

[Kitru]

Boring design is bad design, and PLD is rather boring.

Some people prefer simple. The devs provided two different levels of complexity, which is a good thing. If you want to complain about PLD being boring but don't want to swap to WAR, it's because you care more about the class you're playing as opposed to how your class plays, so you're really just making arbitrary demands based upon your class rather than actual game design constructs.

It's all ok, in the end 2.2 will see PLD back in the top spot and WARs will be calling for changes again, just like before 2.1 WAR were calling for change and PLDs were saying it's not needed lol. Until 2.2 PLDs will continue to call for change while WARs say it's fine as is. Nobody wants their "favorite" job to be the underdog.

The WAR changes were *balance* changes and PLD and WAR are incredibly well balanced right now. Any changes to mechanics that affect tanking directly are going to end up breaking the balance that currently exists (and I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone that understands both classes that thinks that they're *not* super well balanced at the moment). The most that PLD can expect us some QoL changes and *maybe* OT changes that allow them to do damage without generating gobloads of enmity. Neither class is the underdog at the moment.

[Enfarious]

This was posted later in Gamemako's thread:
I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

Not once is it mentioned, Defiance is mentioned, Shield Oath is mentioned, Storm's is not. If I really did miss it, then ok, I don't believe I did though.

She is referring to the 10% DR from storms path I think. I can't say for sure whether or not that was included in this math you posted. That being said I also don't know if the RoH debuff was added.

Regardless Enfarious is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure it matters.

RoH is a str debuff, not a straight DR, where am I wrong exactly? Seriously, I actually would like to know.

Some people prefer simple. The devs provided two different levels of complexity, which is a good thing. If you want to complain about PLD being boring but don't want to swap to WAR, it's because you care more about the class you're playing as opposed to how your class plays, so you're really just making arbitrary demands based upon your class rather than actual game design constructs.

The WAR changes were *balance* changes and PLD and WAR are incredibly well balanced right now. Any changes to mechanics that affect tanking directly are going to end up breaking the balance that currently exists (and I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone that understands both classes that thinks that they're *not* super well balanced at the moment). The most that PLD can expect us some QoL changes and *maybe* OT changes that allow them to do damage without generating gobloads of enmity. Neither class is the underdog at the moment.

I said at the outset, I play both, I'm fine with both. I simply see WAR being the optimal selection now.

I didn't say a thing about actual tanking mechanics either, just that a proper damage combo, one that doesn't include enmity, should exist. It should get us on par w/ a DD WAR, nothing more, nothing less.

Super well balanced, I'll argue, WAR can tank everything a PLD can, PLD can not hit the damage output a WAR can. That is imbalance.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

Not once is it mentioned, Defiance is mentioned, Shield Oath is mentioned, Storm's is not. If I really did miss it, then ok, I don't believe I did though.

He does mention it, but not in a way that quantifies them, here:

There are no differences in defense for which to account, and I accidentally left my crystal ball on the other forums and can't tell you the relative value of SP and RoH debuffs.

Yes, I know its a STR debuff and not a straight DR. But both tanks take advantage of both debuffs in an 8+ man party, so its pretty moot. For 4-man content the difference is negligible.

[Enfarious]

He does mention it, but not in a way that quantifies them, here:


Yes, I know its a STR debuff and not a straight DR. But both tanks take advantage of both debuffs in an 8+ man party, so its pretty moot. For 4-man content the difference is negligible.

Ok, so 10% damage reduction is left out because it can't be quantified? It is 10% reduction of incoming damage, Shield Oath is 20% reduction of incoming damage. Maybe I'm not understanding why 10% in one place cannot be quantified, but all of the other pure reductions can be?

On the second:
Your absolutely right, in 8 man content, assuming it calls for 2 tanks, 2 tanks on the same target, you would get both benefits, this is optimal.
Singly, the difference becomes more noticeable, working with math we've all seen:
Assuming both have 6000 HP before stances
Warrior: 6000 * 1.25 = 7500
Paladin: 6000 + 20% dmg reduction = HP/(1 – 0.2) -> HP = 6000/0.8 = 7500
So without heals the effective health is the same, but things change once healing is taken into account. Tanks take 5k dmg over time and need to healed.
Paladin: 5000 * 0.8 = 4000 dmg to be healed
Warrior: 5000 * 0.9 (this is the missing factor) = 4500 dmg to be healed

White Mage Cure II = 1k
Paladin gets 1k * 4 = 4k to recap.
Warrior gets 1.2k * 4 = 4.8k to overheal 300.

That obviously doesn't account for all the other buffs, just Shield Oath vs. Defiance+Path, considering there is little or no reason that after the first 15 seconds of the fight Path should be dropping (or allowed to stay down after jumps and such).

[Kitru]

I didn't say a thing about actual tanking mechanics either, just that a proper damage combo, one that doesn't include enmity, should exist.

I'll agree that PLD could use a non-high entity combo branching off of Riot Blade for OT purposes, but it's a complete and utter fallacy to say that WAR has better DPS than PLD. A properly played PLD, as a tank, is going to deal within 5% of the damage that a WAR deals and a properly played PLD in Sword Oath is actually going to deal *more* damage than a WAR thanks to the huge DPS increase from Sword Oath (that doesn't get caught by parsers).

The damage/enmity construct was one of the few things that was *amazingly* well balanced between the two classes in 2.0. They (largely) left it alone in 2.1 (they reduced the CD on Unchained by lowered WAR damage by "requiring" the low damage Storm's Path to be used) so it's stayed just as well balanced. The 2.1 changes just brought the survivability balance in line with the damage balance and PLD *still* has a substantial utility advantage over WAR (silence being the biggest point).