Please remove gear advantages in PVP

[Nanaya]

I'm perfectly fine with a gear grind, because it's MMO PvP, and it's never really all that good. I play fighting games for real competition, let's be real here, PvP in a MMO is predominately about waving your dick around.

However, gear with Morale should invariably trump PvE gear. PvE gear is something you should bring into PvP when you're just starting and farming up Marks, only to be tossed to the wayside when you start collecting PvP gear. All that Allagan shit should not be as powerful as it is in a PvP environment, because it was meant for PvE. A starting player that takes the time to gear himself up entirely in the ilvl55 HQ Wolf set should trounce someone who just walks in with their ilvl90 PvE gear because the former actually took time to utilize the Morale stat.

Conversely, PvP gear should be bad outside of PvP. I know this, like so many other things, was rushed an incredible amount, so the early days are going to be kind of not great, but this should be obvious. Leave PvE to PvE, let PvP be its own entity. Any advantage you have in PvE should be wholly pointless in PvP, and vice versa. They should not intersect.

[x037x]

After reading Raenryong's thoughts of this subject across multiple posts, this response makes absolutely no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Shiyo/Raenryong is complaining that gear is the ultimate deciding factor in PVP, and yes in essence he/she is right but skill also comes into play, it' say it's a 50/50 split unless you are completely and totally outgeard, and if that's the case then get to grinding. , and that's that, Further more Ray complains that the winners with better gear and awarded more points? WELL DUH! Do the champion professional sports players get paid more money? Does the winner of a poker tournament not take home the big money pot? Do the NY Yankee's not buy up the best players? DUH!

[Fyreus]

it easy, u want gear progression?

don't allow people without pvp gear play vs player with it, just put another option in duty finder,Arena without morale

I fu_cking farm for my Gear ilvl90 drg 3 months for nothing?because now this gear is usseles and just work for pve and now need to use a horrible gear(visually).

Is funny how some guys don't sleep just for get fast ilvl70 pvp gear and pwned in arena with his gears("pros"),and ofc they can farm more easy vs no gear players,because if u havent morale , is lose 90% vs this players,disadvantage increases more and more.

This pvp mode is only for no-lifes hardcore players and ffxiv not is hardcore game.I can say this from my experience in REAL hardcore games.

I totally agree. I should be able to do PvP AND PvE in my DoH gear since i worked very hard farming dungeons to buy the full set.

[Fyreus]

You know...

One thing that always bothered me is when people say pvp should be balanced and never ever mention pvp should be rock/paper/scissors. Classes/Jobs aren't created to be equal or homogenized to the point where picking 1 class over the other is pointless. If i want to do a certain task in pvp then i'll select that job and gear it.

This thread makes me wonder if people like the OP know how to pvp.

[docbon]

It makes perfect sense. Shiyo/Raenryong is complaining that gear is the ultimate deciding factor in PVP, and yes in essence he/she is right but skill also comes into play, it' say it's a 50/50 split unless you are completely and totally outgeard, and if that's the case then get to grinding. , and that's that, Further more Ray complains that the winners with better gear and awarded more points? WELL DUH! Do the champion professional sports players get paid more money? Does the winner of a poker tournament not take home the big money pot? Do the NY Yankee's not buy up the best players? DUH!

I never thought I'd see an argument for gear progression utilizing traditional, pure skill based sports and competitive games. Absolutely nothing you listed gives a mechanical advantage to an individual player's performance within a game. Whatever perks they get outside the actual match doesn't matter.

[x037x]

It's an analogy, a comparison in two competitive environments with rewards. Ever watch the move moneyball? Rich teams buy good players. Good PVPers buy GOOD Gear. Still can't see it? Sorry if you don't understand, sorry if you can't draw the parallels. But keep on sympathizing with these noobs. maybe you should carry them.

[MrMr]

It makes perfect sense. Shiyo/Raenryong is complaining that gear is the ultimate deciding factor in PVP, and yes in essence he/she is right but skill also comes into play it' say it's a 50/50 split

I don't believe they have ever made that claim or complaint. They have stated they believe it affects the play to much. It would surprise me if they even thought in this instance it was a 50/50 split you like indicate here. However, they are making the argument that it has to much of an impact.

Do the champion professional sports players get paid more money? Does the winner of a poker tournament not take home the big money pot? Do the NY Yankee's not buy up the best players? DUH!

It is unfortunate that you haven't taken the time to understand their argument enough to make a proper analogy.


In this case a proper analogy would be related to the equipment of the players of those respective sports. Would you like to play baseball when you are forced to use a plastic bat and softball when the opposing team gets aluminum bats and whiffle balls or golf balls? Or play poker against a person that can use a computer to run the math on the chances of winning for each hand or that has a camera that will always see your hand? These are analogous to the gear advantages you speak of, and we haven't even gotten into more abstract rules in respectable sports such as team salary caps.


When you put focus on gear grind you put focus on starting in a league early or devoting a lot of time to it, not how quickly you learn the skills. You also diminish previously learned skills tested in the sport or related ones. If I was one of the top baseball players in one league and left to join another but was forced to use a plastic bat my ability to perform relative to the other people in the league would be diminished simply because I had not put the same amount of time as others in this league, even if I had put a significant amount of time in others. I might also not have as much time in my life to play as I did in the previous league where I developed my skill, so now to play at the top level again I might find there is nothing or very little for me to improve upon as a player and that I simply have to put in an very significant amount of time to get equal equipment.

That is the primary argument against a gear grind in a competitive setting, one of the deciding factors becomes about the amount of time someone can commit not how good they are at playing. For those of us that want to be good at something competitive it surprises us that anyone would defend a system where time committed becomes valuable relative to skill of the player. Even more so when players have already developed many or all of the skills necessary to compete, reducing the grind to not one of personal improvement but simply a giant time sink.

If gear is normalized then they will complain "OMG SMN is so overpowered I cannot beat a SMN, OMG if a SMN is on their team, they always beat my team! It's not fair that I don't have a SMN on my team, there NEEDS to be a nerf to SMN, NERF THEM NOW!!!

No one yet has complained about their ability to become or get a SMN on their team. SMN is still analogous to equipment though, the problem with SMN is not the access limit of it or the grind, although it has both of those problems to a certain degree, it has to do with the affect on how the game is played.

If a batter could choose between a variety of bats and one of those bats slowed down time allowing to more easily hit the ball everyone would need to use that bat to perform well. This would fundamentally change how the baseball is played and generally make the game less fun. That is unless the other bats gave out equivalent advantages, and equipment to put on the pitchers that gave equivalent advantages. The complaint is that the time slowing bat is just significantly better than the other options forcing everyone to use it to compete at a high level. In the case of SMN this might be a false complaint, but at the moment it seems to be an entirely valid one. We will need to let people consider how to overcome it with the options they have for a bit to know for sure, but it seems likely that the time slowing bat is just superior to all the other options. In an extreme case this could mean that everyone scores a homerun every time because the time slowing bat is just that good. At which point baseball becomes completely decided by who is at bat first, as they would in theory score an infinite number of runs. This would be bad for the players and the health of the game.

[docbon]

I don't have anything else to add, but I'd like to thank you for taking the time to post an excellent rebuttal.

[AmarantOrnitier]

I disagree with the original post. I've played many teams that out geared my team and we've won. In PVP your skill mean everything. Good gear will make a good player amazing, but good gear will make a poor player... just slightly better then poor. Anyways, everyone has the means to have the best gear in the game. Just work harder.

[MrMr]

I disagree with the original post. I've played many teams that out geared my team and we've won. In PVP your skill mean everything. Good gear will make a good player amazing, but good gear will make a poor player... just slightly better then poor. Anyways, everyone has the means to have the best gear in the game. Just work harder.

You are contradicting yourself, you can't tell me skill means everything and then tell me gear makes a good player amazing. Once you start introducing tiered gear you are actively making it so that skill literally does not mean everything. Docbon, Shiyo and Raenryong are arguing they want skill to literally mean everything, those arguing against them don't want that. Their opponents in this debate (I cringe using that word for this 'discussion') want time investment to be a portion of the 'how much impact do you individually have on the pvp match' equation.


It is also false to state that good gear with will make a good player amazing. Having better gear does not make a good player better, it gives a good player an advantage over others. In this case largely because they have invested time in the game, even if that time investment has not improved their ability to play it well. It is a wonderful illusion created in many games, gear is a powerful part of how to make players feel more powerful feel like they are progressing even if they aren't. The illusion of individual progression can even work against an individuals actual progression. Get enough of a gear advantage and you can overcome handicaps in skill. No, gear does not make a good player amazing, it increases the impact any player can have on a match regardless of skill because they had and were willing to invest more time than their opponent, allies or competition for the same slot on a team.

Also working hard is not the primary factor in what leads to better gear, time is. Work more is a valid statement, and if you work harder you can decrease how long you have to work for, but it mostly comes down to working more not working harder (although there is an element of working smarter, such as finding two friends who work hard to queue in the solo queue with you and pub stomp for points). Working harder is exactly what Shiyo, DocBon and Raenryong want. It is something that any true competitive player wants. They don't however want to work more to be on equal footing with with someone who doesn't work as hard.