Has SE screwed itself?

[ZenBear]

I feel that the way classes are defined by their weapon and jobs are defined by their primary class severely limits what SE can do with this game.

For example; the Dark Knight. A classic Final Fantasy class that we all expect to see in the near future. But what class will it build from? I initially thought Marauder, given the big 2-handed weapon and aggressive combat style, but Marauder is a tank with a lot of enmity-generating attacks that will either force the DK to be a tank as well (something DKs have never been to my knowledge) or will go unused and make the DK underpowered.

Perhaps, then, DK will come from the Lancer class? That could work; 2-handed weapon DD with medium armor, but in FFXI the iconic DK weapon is the scythe which is a slashing rather than stabbing weapon. Still, giving DK a spear/halberd is a forgivable diversion from the norm, so perhaps this could work.

Now how about the Red Mage? Versatile medium-heavy armored mages who fight on the front line with sword and shield. So perhaps Gladiator as it's core class, with Arcanist sub? Again we're faced with the problem of a tanking main class on a job that has to my knowledge never been a tank. It could become one, I suppose, along a similar vein to the PLD who also uses magic, but then those two jobs would be dangerously similar.

These are two examples that popped in my head today, and while they can make it work it just seems like such a stretch. I mean look at the Scholar; where the hell did they get the idea to give them fairies? I like that changing classes is as easy as changing your weapon, but I'm very concerned with the limitations of the system.

So what are your thoughts on the matter? Any ideas for how other iconic jobs might be built out of the existing classes? Discuss, please.

[NintenPyjak64]

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Yoshida gave an example on how Dark Knight would be implemented. In the scenario GLA was it's base class, DRK would have special traits that will change the tanking skills to be more DPS oriented. they'd also implement GLA/DRK or DRK only Greatswords to fit the class

And for RDM, I could see it as GLA with THM as a subjob (with CNJ as another), and RDM would use Rapier type swords fit for RDM only

As for the SCH with Fairies, think of it as SCH using mostly "black magic" (ACN DoTs) and "white magic" (SCH skills and Fairy).

And for your final question, one thing I'd personally like to see is Thief from Musketeer, BST having it's own class with Whips and SAM/NIN coming from a new class as well

[Duelle]

Perhaps, then, DK will come from the Lancer class? That could work; 2-handed weapon DD with medium armor, but in FF the iconic DK weapon is the great sword

Fixed.

However, what happens when a DRK gets level sync'd below the point where he gets those traits? Does he suddenly become a tank again?

SCH can run Sastasha as a Healer, so I don't see why DRK would not be able to run low level dungeons as DPS.

RDM from FFXI had access to white and black magic with an emphasis on buffs/debuffs.

My sig. Read it.

Yoshida gave an example on how Dark Knight would be implemented. In the scenario GLA was it's base class, DRK would have special traits that will change the tanking skills to be more DPS oriented. they'd also implement GLA/DRK or DRK only Greatswords to fit the class

This. I sort of wish they had shown how far this concept can go with SCH, but sadly they opted to not do so.

[ZenBear]

Hmm. Well if they're willing to give a DRK traits to change tanking skills to DPS, then they should make DRK build from MRD instead of GLD. Already a 2-hander type with good damage, a damage buff, self-healing, etc. Just seems a better fit, IMO. However, what happens when a DRK gets level sync'd below the point where he gets those traits? Does he suddenly become a tank again? That means you can never run Sastasha as a DRK DPS, which would be very disappointing. :/

RDM from FFXI had access to white and black magic with an emphasis on buffs/debuffs. Having just THM as the subclass means no white magic, and having 2 subclasses is going against the established system a bit too much. Arcanist has damage and healing spells, so I think it would make more sense.

Similarly, FFXI Scholar was a mixed-magic mage, but no armor and a greater focus on straight dmg/healing over enhancing spells. The fairy was something completely arbitrary so that it could build from the ARC, which is a pet class by design.

SAM I would love to see as a DEX based tank. Having both SAM and NIN build as Tank and DPS respectively from a Fencer/Swordsman class that uses katanas would be perfect!

[Meleena]

How about implememnting a new class to evolve into dark knight people, dont make this more complicated, its simple really...

[ZenBear]

How about implememnting a new class to evolve into dark knight people, dont make this more complicated, its simple really...

Except that's not actually simple from a design perspective. Making a new class for every (or nearly every) job is a huge strain on time and creativity of a team that already has to pump out new dungeons, storylines, and other such content as fast as possible.

A good rule of thumb; if the solution is simple, then it's incomplete. Nothing about game design is ever simple.

[RitzNBitz]

Except that's not actually simple from a design perspective. Making a new c

A good rule of thumb; if the solution is simple, then it's incomplete. Nothing about game design is ever simple.

A slightly simpler solution that is not incomplete would be to use the same class system they have now.

A GLA can use a sword(1h) or sword(2h) and the skills available to them would change based on their weapon on choice(an attack will lack emnity for example with a 2 handed sword). Class=GLA still

In order to use Dark knight stone you would need to be wielding a 2 handed sword, in other to use Paladin stone you would need to be wielding a 1 handed sword.

Conceptually its something they can easily achieve(since the functions already exist in code, so in the backend it might be GLA1 and GLA2 being two separate classes but to the end user would have the same name)

The hard part would be developing, balancing and testing the new skills.

[Sylve]

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Pretty much this. Had a discussion today in my FC where they tried to work out how they'd put a Red/Blue Mage in, and the general thought was "just use THM!" which was great and all, except then at 50 they'd be BLMs with 4 different job skills, and when i said as such, it clicked for them.

The thing is, theres nothing wrong with adding Base Classes to go with new Jobs. Hell, even making new classes that Sub 2 different Classes is a possibility.
Especially since we can *already*sub skills from 2 classes.
We have the one class we need at lvl 15 as the Subclass, then the second Class we can draw skills from. As an example, my Lancer needed PGL-15 to make Dragoon, but as a DRG I'm capable of also drawing skills from MRD.
Scholar needed CNJ-15 but also draws skills from THM.

I'd much rather every new job also came with a new class, so that all the new Jobs feel unique the way our current 9 jobs do.

[MartaDemireux]

I'd much rather every new job also came with a new class, so that all the new Jobs feel unique the way our current 9 jobs do.

The one major problem here then is you end up much like XI with a ton of base classes to choose from and level up independently. With the game catering a lot to the casual crowd, I don't see this working too well. The major draw for ACN for example is having the ability to fill 2 roles when you get to 50. ACN's jobs also have entirely unique feels to them. The way to go about this is to either change some effects of base class abilities (like my idea of turning flash into darkness for GLA>DRK) in the same way ACN did or to give the second job abilities that will shape it entirely the way SCH did. SCH's base mechanic is the same as ACN with Aetherflow but they won't use very many ACN abilities over their own SCH abilities.

[Sylve]

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They only dont use the ACN skills because the ACN skills dont heal.
I really don't see how new base classes equates to a problem of any description. How would the "casuals" be a problem for new classes?
A new Base class for a Red mage, would let it have its own completely unique abilities and story chains explaining how it came to be.
Otherwise, you'd have a core of Fire/Blizzard spam, with a sprinkle of random special skills.

Red and Blue Mages use very different kinds of Magic compared to a THM/BLM. the THM is all about destructive magics and personal fragility in its story, and the BLM continues that concept. Where does the Blue or Red Mage mechanics allow it to come from a class thats dedicated to pure destruction?

It might work for some classes, but many others will need whole new classes to function properly.