Butcher's Block... worthless.

[Giantbane]

Oh no my Threat is strong..... I now have more time to think, use my other abilities, and keep my debuffs up instead of 123123123. I never had threat issues before but now my threat issues just got smaller. Woe is me, im so lost.

You had those things before. You just needed to use your abilities properly or understand the dynamics of a fight to know when you were going to have a threat cushion and when it was safe to work in extra abilities. Now it's pretty much always safe. There is no "work in". It dumbs it down. It was unnecessary and doesn't add anything to the game. It only diminishes it by trivializing the enmity sub game.

If you wanted more time to think, play your PLD. You have it at 50, why dumb the game down because otherwise you'd be too inept to play WAR?

[Leiron]

It was always safe to work in extra abilities Giantsbane.
BB>BB>SE provided the same cushion as RoH>RoH>RoH.


EQ had actual enmity management.
Not sure anyone remembers that game.

[Giantbane]

It was always safe to work in extra abilities Giantsbane.
BB>BB>SE provided the same cushion as RoH>RoH>RoH.


EQ had actual enmity management.
Not sure anyone remembers that game.

BB>SE (fracture on demand) provided more damage at the cost of less threat. If you stuck to BB>BB>SE if you had built up a significant threat cushion you were not playing as well as you could have.

2.1 added the promise of more flexibility when you built up a threat cushion with the addition of the 3rd combo as a useful tool in our toolbelt. But there is no build up anymore. You just have that threat cushion so do whatever you want. It's sort of silly.

Except that they were a mindless AOE all the things ANYWAY when you had equal gear.
Heck there was never a reason to fear anything during a WP run unless a Paladin/WAR ran out of mana for utilizing flash/overpower spam.

Yes, and now you never have a reason to fear anything at all. Period. TP/Mana management was part of the challenge and fun of a speed run. Since you don't need as much to hold threat, that is now diminished/trivialized/more mindless than it was.

It was mindless in the past BEFORE tthe buffs, to suggest it is mindless NOW with the buffs is entirely silly.
Seriously get over yourselves, you guys act as if enmity was something skillfully managed in the past, when it wasn't.
It never was.


Before: Tank never lost agro
After: Tank never lost agro.

As long as your group was organized, it wasn't *that* hard unless you were skimping on TP/Mana in AoE situations.. If your group was playing dumb and splitting DPS targets, DPS was splitting between single target and AoE or your healer was spamming medica and overhealing for no good reason, then you'd have an agro problem. There was some incentive to play together properly. Enmity was a group effort.

It wasn't crazy difficult or skillful, but it was *something* you'd at least have to pay attention to in addition to all the other stuff that might go on in a fight. Now that aspect is almost entirely removed.

@Giantbane: BB>BB>SE provides the same amount of agro as the RoH combo spam. There was never a decision of "should I use Unchained for more threat or INner beast for heals."

It was always "Hey is it worth using Unchained for the extra damage?"
Enmity wasn't an issue in the past.
This doesn't change anything. ANd really, the complaints are for the sake of complaining and not because there is a reason to complain.

See above about BB>BB>SE vs. BB>SE, there was good reason to build yourself a threat cushion via Unchained + Berserk + Inner Beast. And if you could work it, you'd time it so you had SE and Maim up and was landed BB right after you buffed with Berserk to really get the most out of it. There would have been even *better* reason to build that threat cushion with 2.1 since you have a whole other non-threat option to work with.

And really, arguing that nothing has changed is just for the sake of argument and not because nothing has changed.

[Leiron]

Fracture could be used every 30 seconds with little loss to your enmity.
The only real issue with Fracture is that its expensive.

[Gamemako]

Except that the math you are using suggests equal str/wpndmg/det.
It isn't taking into account an i55 Tanking weapon vs i90 DPS weapon which the two are entirely different.

They are not different. The deviation by job is to the tune of 1-2% and may well be a flat additive factor. All physical jobs, including tanks, ranged, and melee DPS, have the same damage formula. How you've missed this fact in the past 6 months is beyond me.

That only further serves my argument that there is literallyno reason to complain because it means nothing changed.

So nothing at all would change if you made Twintania die in one hit when geared players attack it, because lol they could do it anyway? Hell, you seem to begrudge the act of even playing the game; why don't we just hand you the rewards and send you on your merry little way?

[Shurrikhan]

<snip>

It just feels silly that I can literally auto-attack half or more of the time and still hold threat. If it's hard to understand how that makes tanking less exciting for many, we have a very different idea of what tanking ought to feel like.

When I started tanking I was often an Ifrit axe vs. relic +1's. I most certainly did use Unchained for threat to deal with their CDs. And I enjoyed inching out what I can, knowing when I could mitigate (just as there are some times when you couldn't afford to flash because an RoH needed to go off before that relic+1's Full Thrust), and that my dps buffs were usable for my recovery via Inner Beast.

Moreover, if tanking was boring before and is still boring now, isn't that too a failure? Even when practically carrying a taunt-aura, we still can't mitigate all that much, and the current IB's 20% of 6 seconds is commonly worth less total damage--short of Coil--than the former IB self-heal. The IB does no more than give us what Paladin's passive damage-taken reduction, and neither do we feel close to healers who make up for that difference (Shield Oath to Defiance's healing-taken increase) when they no longer play into our mechanics. I don't wholly miss the coupling of Wrath and healing-taken, but it made us attentive, which then made the job more fun.

A lot of the changes seem to be for the better, sure, but the job does not feel as fun as it was (aside, most largely in my opinion, the fact that we can actually hold AoE threat effectively with Steel Cyclone, whereas we were pretty well capped around 3 enemies we could hold with single-target attacks before against a better geared BLM, etc).

[TaneshimaPopura]

I'm not sure why you'd guys wouldn't even use BB combo. If the tank has no need for Storm Path debuff, BB combo does more damage. Offtank will almost always use SE>BB Combo whereas MT will use SE>SP Combo. With the current changes to Enmity I don't even need to worry about Enmity outside of Tank Stance even if I used BB combo 50% of the time and with all CDs.

[Peptaru]

This just in: I pulled a boss off of the +1 (zenith lol) tank in his tanking stance on my drg. Just like I did before the patch. Guess what else. I've done it with more than one tank. The update changed very little.

Before I couldn't unload a full weight, fully-buffed combo five seconds into a fight... I still can't. I usually side with G when it comes to potency discussions, but omg are you way off on this one. Enmity isn't the melee's concern? Bullcrap. Bad tanks are still bad, good tanks are still good. Bad melee are still bad, good melee are still good. If you want to know what the update to enmity really did, it made a more noticeable disparity between good and bad; that's it.

[Dlewis1986]

Yup I used to hold agro like a champ with this update I can get far more creative with rotations and make roulette players say OMFG I love the war update

[Ismael]

What's the issue? Now Warrior has more rotations to choose from, on top of being able to fight bosses effectively one on one and groups of mobs. Tanking has never been this fun on Warrior! Everything I do gives threat, especially Steel Cyclone spamming. BB used to the only thing I'd do, after Storms Eye Combo. Now I have other skills to play with, depending on the situation.