Butcher's Block... worthless.

[Leiron]

This is a pretty funny argument, because it's easy to do the math to show that you have more than enough enmity to hold aggro despite gear discrepancies. Forget Defiance and everything else, BB is 2150 enmity-potency per 7.5s, 2400 including autoattacks. A relic+1 DRG FT combo was an effective 1100 enmity-potency per 7.5s with HT and Disembowel up. Now tell me, do you really think the DRG is doing 120% more damage per potency? Because he isn't. Valk's heuristic predicts about 78% going from 38 WD and 300 strength to 46 WD and 500 strength. You have a 20% lead over your +1 DPS from the rawest of fresh-50 AF gear.

Except that the math you are using suggests equal str/wpndmg/det.
It isn't taking into account an i55 Tanking weapon vs i90 DPS weapon which the two are entirely different.
I have not seen anyone manage to maintain agro in practice when the DPS chooses to unload immediately on the spot.
Not without the DPS having to use abilities that lower their agro generation.
Furthermore, there have been cases where people stated that at the upper ends of gar, DPS does get closer and closer to pulling agro due to the way gear is oriented.
DPS scales in a linear fashion, if you have a comfortable lead at the start when equally geared, there isn't a reason for it to suddenly shift once you have geared up fully.

Now mind you, this is assuming pre-shield oath buffs.
Heck let us assume that I am incorrect and you can use an ilvl55 tank to hold threat off of a ilvl90 BLM/DRG/BRD/MNK.
That only further serves my argument that there is literallyno reason to complain because it means nothing changed.
You moved your soda from the back of the fridge to the front.
So why complain?

I am sure with the current buffs you can hold threat using ilvl55 more comfortably this round.
In the past?
Never worked out that way in practice, and unfortunately, no one really cared to check.

You can basically hold aggro against the strongest DPS in a bikini with a Weathered War Axe at this point.

Now you're just being silly.

QFT.

Except that they were a mindless AOE all the things ANYWAY when you had equal gear.
Heck there was never a reason to fear anything during a WP run unless a Paladin/WAR ran out of mana for utilizing flash/overpower spam.

It was mindless in the past BEFORE tthe buffs, to suggest it is mindless NOW with the buffs is entirely silly.
Seriously get over yourselves, you guys act as if enmity was something skillfully managed in the past, when it wasn't.
It never was.


Before: Tank never lost agro
After: Tank never lost agro.

So what are you complaining about outside of it being easier to maintain agro...when you were ALREADY maintaining agro to begin with.

If a tank did 10k enmity a second.
Then they buffed it to 20k enmity a second, but DPS did only 1k enmity in the past and now, then there is literally a net gain of 0.
You literally gained nothing besides a larger buffer.

And the game doesn't care.
As long as you have at least 1 point more enmity than the 2nd guy, you keep agro.


Tanking was mindless in the past.
Its still mindless now.



@Giantbane: BB>BB>SE provides the same amount of agro as the RoH combo spam. There was never a decision of "should I use Unchained for more threat or INner beast for heals."

It was always "Hey is it worth using Unchained for the extra damage?"
Enmity wasn't an issue in the past.
This doesn't change anything. ANd really, the complaints are for the sake of complaining and not because there is a reason to complain.

[Gamemako]

Except that the math you are using suggests equal str/wpndmg/det.
It isn't taking into account an i55 Tanking weapon vs i90 DPS weapon which the two are entirely different.

They are not different. The deviation by job is to the tune of 1-2% and may well be a flat additive factor. All physical jobs, including tanks, ranged, and melee DPS, have the same damage formula. How you've missed this fact in the past 6 months is beyond me.

That only further serves my argument that there is literallyno reason to complain because it means nothing changed.

So nothing at all would change if you made Twintania die in one hit when geared players attack it, because lol they could do it anyway? Hell, you seem to begrudge the act of even playing the game; why don't we just hand you the rewards and send you on your merry little way?

[Shurrikhan]

<snip>

It just feels silly that I can literally auto-attack half or more of the time and still hold threat. If it's hard to understand how that makes tanking less exciting for many, we have a very different idea of what tanking ought to feel like.

When I started tanking I was often an Ifrit axe vs. relic +1's. I most certainly did use Unchained for threat to deal with their CDs. And I enjoyed inching out what I can, knowing when I could mitigate (just as there are some times when you couldn't afford to flash because an RoH needed to go off before that relic+1's Full Thrust), and that my dps buffs were usable for my recovery via Inner Beast.

Moreover, if tanking was boring before and is still boring now, isn't that too a failure? Even when practically carrying a taunt-aura, we still can't mitigate all that much, and the current IB's 20% of 6 seconds is commonly worth less total damage--short of Coil--than the former IB self-heal. The IB does no more than give us what Paladin's passive damage-taken reduction, and neither do we feel close to healers who make up for that difference (Shield Oath to Defiance's healing-taken increase) when they no longer play into our mechanics. I don't wholly miss the coupling of Wrath and healing-taken, but it made us attentive, which then made the job more fun.

A lot of the changes seem to be for the better, sure, but the job does not feel as fun as it was (aside, most largely in my opinion, the fact that we can actually hold AoE threat effectively with Steel Cyclone, whereas we were pretty well capped around 3 enemies we could hold with single-target attacks before against a better geared BLM, etc).