Butcher's Block... worthless.

[Gamemako]

So if you are a tank that does everything right, but you have a GC ilvl 50 weapon and they have relic +1 and pull agro, you're a bad tank?
Blanket statements are bad.

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

[Leiron]

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

Cool, and I did too, and was playing with a Bard, a BLM and WHM and my experience was entirely the opposite. Agro was a struggle to maintain unless they intentionally throttled their DPS.

If your DPS couldn't pull agro, its because they are bad, or they pitied you and held back.

The bat swings both ways.

[Calib0s]

People view enmity as trivial in 2.0 when they were overgeared with 150 hours of practice grabbing every opponent and putting exactly the right amount of enmity on each to hold it, just like people who talk about how loleasy Twintania is when it was previously thought nearly impossible.

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

Which is it?

[Vortok]

Holding threat on a single target was never a 'skill' thing. Tanking one thing in general is rarely all that challenging. Holding threat on multiple enemies if it required more than just spamming an aoe move like Flash/Overpower did take some amount of skill, as evidenced by the many people being less able to do so than others while juggling all the other things a tank should be doing.

But we got the spam route buffed, so dungeons will continue to be 'mindlessly aoe all the things' unless something is actually dangerous enough to warrant killing it before everything else. Which seems doubtful, because then people would whine that not everyone has the same CC options available because everyone has to be equal at times. -.-

Mindless aoe is the most boring thing to do in MMOs.

[Dhex]

I honestly don't see the problem.

Is tanking any less fun because of these changes? Nothing has really changed for Paladin, and Warrior now has more buffs to keep an eye on and more combos to commit to muscle memory. If your DPS/Healer roles had learnt to pay attention to their enmity meter in 2.0 you never had any threat issues then - now they can open up a bit more without having to baby the tank's threat generation as much.

Basically; "I dislike the new synergy and pacing of combat because certain meta-game aspects required everyone to sit and watch a meter to pace themselves off my threat generation and now they don't need to watch that meter as much because I can generate threat more quickly than before." To which I just don't really have anything to say but.. uh sorry I guess? :/

[Gamemako]

Cool, and I did too, and was playing with a Bard, a BLM and WHM and my experience was entirely the opposite. Agro was a struggle to maintain unless they intentionally throttled their DPS.

If your DPS couldn't pull agro, its because they are bad, or they pitied you and held back.

The bat swings both ways.

This is a pretty funny argument, because it's easy to do the math to show that you have more than enough enmity to hold aggro despite gear discrepancies. Forget Defiance and everything else, BB is 2150 enmity-potency per 7.5s, 2400 including autoattacks. A relic+1 DRG FT combo was an effective 1100 enmity-potency per 7.5s with HT and Disembowel up. Now tell me, do you really think the DRG is doing 120% more damage per potency? Because he isn't. Valk's heuristic predicts about 78% going from 38 WD and 300 strength to 46 WD and 500 strength. You have a 20% lead over your +1 DPS from the rawest of fresh-50 AF gear.

Yes, actual WAR enmity generation and actual DRG damage are both higher than that example, but the ratio is actually pretty similar. You would have to leverage that lead to generate AoE enmity at the same time, using Berserk to account for the damage buffs other players may use. If you just spammed Overpower, you would lose aggro. That isn't remotely true anymore. You can basically hold aggro against the strongest DPS in a bikini with a Weathered War Axe at this point.

Which is it?

There's nothing contradictory there. 2.0 enmity was not trivial, but you could always manage to account for gear discrepancy. Failing to pay attention, especially against combinations like SMN and MNK, would have you lose aggro unless you're highly geared. If you ever lost aggro, it was your fault, but the game didn't just hand it to you. In 2.1, the game hands it to you on a silver platter. Overpower three times, go have a picnic somewhere because it's a done deal. Enemies are dead before DPS can catch up to your enmity spike.

But we got the spam route buffed, so dungeons will continue to be 'mindlessly aoe all the things'

QFT.

[Giantbane]

Tank's dont do squat for enmity management.
They don't decide anything, let's not pretend they do.

For PLD? No, there's very little they decide. That's the point. PLD is supposed to be an easier tank to play because some people want that. They don't want to worry about de-buffs, different combos, or ability synergy. They just want to worry about controlling their enmity on multiple targets (single target shouldn't be an issue), using their buffs to stay alive and not standing in the fire.

WAR? There was a lot they could do. Unchained for more threat or Inner Beast for mitigation? Do I pick a combo that does the most enmity, the most damage, does the most mitigation (include SP in 2.1)? How soon do I have enough threat to work in a maim combo which boosts my BB even further? During AoE threat, can I work in a maim combo to boost my damage and refresh wrath stacks? During AoE threat, how soon could I swap to target cycling to conserve TP?

As a WAR, there was a lot that could go into your decisions on how you manage damage vs. mitigation vs. threat. Now, there is no decision, it's just derp derp derp all the way home.


Before, you needed to maintain your threat to stay above DPS. Now you can open up with damage buffs and high threat moves (WAR or PLD) and and just go make a sandwich while the rest of the team finishes the fight.

[Giantbane]

I don't understand the scaling argument. I have never seen any math that actually suggests that DPS enmity scales faster than Tank enmity.

And it doesn't really pass the smell test either. A PLD just doing his Rage of Halone combo generates 683 potency of enmity per GCD without using any off GCD abilities, fight or flight or shield oath. How many damage classes can maintain that kind of potency per attack?

And that's just the baseline threat. Throw in damage buffs (fight or flight, unchained, berserk), off GCD abilities and the ~15-20% boost that old shield oath/defiance used to supply and I don't see how any of the DPS classes can scale faster. Even with DPS gaining more damage stats on their accessories (if you don't include crafted gear), I find it difficult they will be able to keep pace with that kind of threat multiplier.

It doesn't even mesh well with most of the arguments in this thread. If enmity "wasn't a problem in 2.0" if you were well geared, then obviously being at the top level of Tank gear meant you could hold threat against the top level of DPS gear. Which tells me that scaling wasn't an issue here either.

[OmegaSinX]

Oh no my Threat is strong..... I now have more time to think, use my other abilities, and keep my debuffs up instead of 123123123. I never had threat issues before but now my threat issues just got smaller. Woe is me, im so lost.

[Leiron]

This is a pretty funny argument, because it's easy to do the math to show that you have more than enough enmity to hold aggro despite gear discrepancies. Forget Defiance and everything else, BB is 2150 enmity-potency per 7.5s, 2400 including autoattacks. A relic+1 DRG FT combo was an effective 1100 enmity-potency per 7.5s with HT and Disembowel up. Now tell me, do you really think the DRG is doing 120% more damage per potency? Because he isn't. Valk's heuristic predicts about 78% going from 38 WD and 300 strength to 46 WD and 500 strength. You have a 20% lead over your +1 DPS from the rawest of fresh-50 AF gear.

Except that the math you are using suggests equal str/wpndmg/det.
It isn't taking into account an i55 Tanking weapon vs i90 DPS weapon which the two are entirely different.
I have not seen anyone manage to maintain agro in practice when the DPS chooses to unload immediately on the spot.
Not without the DPS having to use abilities that lower their agro generation.
Furthermore, there have been cases where people stated that at the upper ends of gar, DPS does get closer and closer to pulling agro due to the way gear is oriented.
DPS scales in a linear fashion, if you have a comfortable lead at the start when equally geared, there isn't a reason for it to suddenly shift once you have geared up fully.

Now mind you, this is assuming pre-shield oath buffs.
Heck let us assume that I am incorrect and you can use an ilvl55 tank to hold threat off of a ilvl90 BLM/DRG/BRD/MNK.
That only further serves my argument that there is literallyno reason to complain because it means nothing changed.
You moved your soda from the back of the fridge to the front.
So why complain?

I am sure with the current buffs you can hold threat using ilvl55 more comfortably this round.
In the past?
Never worked out that way in practice, and unfortunately, no one really cared to check.

You can basically hold aggro against the strongest DPS in a bikini with a Weathered War Axe at this point.

Now you're just being silly.

QFT.

Except that they were a mindless AOE all the things ANYWAY when you had equal gear.
Heck there was never a reason to fear anything during a WP run unless a Paladin/WAR ran out of mana for utilizing flash/overpower spam.

It was mindless in the past BEFORE tthe buffs, to suggest it is mindless NOW with the buffs is entirely silly.
Seriously get over yourselves, you guys act as if enmity was something skillfully managed in the past, when it wasn't.
It never was.


Before: Tank never lost agro
After: Tank never lost agro.

So what are you complaining about outside of it being easier to maintain agro...when you were ALREADY maintaining agro to begin with.

If a tank did 10k enmity a second.
Then they buffed it to 20k enmity a second, but DPS did only 1k enmity in the past and now, then there is literally a net gain of 0.
You literally gained nothing besides a larger buffer.

And the game doesn't care.
As long as you have at least 1 point more enmity than the 2nd guy, you keep agro.


Tanking was mindless in the past.
Its still mindless now.



@Giantbane: BB>BB>SE provides the same amount of agro as the RoH combo spam. There was never a decision of "should I use Unchained for more threat or INner beast for heals."

It was always "Hey is it worth using Unchained for the extra damage?"
Enmity wasn't an issue in the past.
This doesn't change anything. ANd really, the complaints are for the sake of complaining and not because there is a reason to complain.