Butcher's Block... worthless.

[Leiron]

Trololo interrupts, because WAR totally can interrupt more than a DPS. And man, knowing game mechanics, like knowing how to sit in one spot for the entirety of Titan HM and never moving an inch? SO PRO.

And there is so much skill hitting the same 3 buttons in sequence over and over again right?
Or hitting Overpower over and over for AOE agro right?
Or Flash?

To even suggest that there was any skill in gaining enmity is completely false.
Tanks never had to manage agro. They only had to generate it.
This is a case of complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Gamemako]

Tanks never had to manage agro. They only had to generate it.
DPS were the ones that had to manage it

If you had DPS considering enmity, then you are a bad tank. Enmity is not their job, it's yours. Do you see the word "enmity" plastered all over MNK abilities? Is it anywhere at all? Nope. MNK's job is to be hammering opponents as hard as possible without getting smashed by random-target attacks (you know, like the plumes that are their job and NOT yours).

[Leiron]

If you had DPS considering enmity, then you are a bad tank.

So if you are a tank that does everything right, but you have a GC ilvl 50 weapon and they have relic +1 and pull agro, you're a bad tank?
Blanket statements are bad.

Sorry but, enmity generation is something a tank does, its not something they manage.
They don't raise, lower or siphon.
They mash their combos/AOE ability and generate it.

Enmity is not their job, it's yours. Do you see the word "enmity" plastered all over MNK abilities? Is it anywhere at all? Nope. MNK's job is to be hammering opponents as hard as possible without getting smashed by random-target attacks (you know, like the plumes that are their job and NOT yours).

Pardon but in EQ, enmity was not listed in any of a DPS' abilities, but what do you know, DPS had to help manage threat.
This was the same in WoW's early days of tanking, where management of agro was really beyond the tank.

It fell down to the DPS to hold back and not generate too much enmity.
I fail to see why you are so intent on arguing the matter.


Tank's dont do squat for enmity management.
They don't decide anything, let's not pretend they do.

[Gamemako]

So if you are a tank that does everything right, but you have a GC ilvl 50 weapon and they have relic +1 and pull agro, you're a bad tank?
Blanket statements are bad.

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

[Leiron]

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

Cool, and I did too, and was playing with a Bard, a BLM and WHM and my experience was entirely the opposite. Agro was a struggle to maintain unless they intentionally throttled their DPS.

If your DPS couldn't pull agro, its because they are bad, or they pitied you and held back.

The bat swings both ways.

[Dhex]

I honestly don't see the problem.

Is tanking any less fun because of these changes? Nothing has really changed for Paladin, and Warrior now has more buffs to keep an eye on and more combos to commit to muscle memory. If your DPS/Healer roles had learnt to pay attention to their enmity meter in 2.0 you never had any threat issues then - now they can open up a bit more without having to baby the tank's threat generation as much.

Basically; "I dislike the new synergy and pacing of combat because certain meta-game aspects required everyone to sit and watch a meter to pace themselves off my threat generation and now they don't need to watch that meter as much because I can generate threat more quickly than before." To which I just don't really have anything to say but.. uh sorry I guess? :/

[Calib0s]

People view enmity as trivial in 2.0 when they were overgeared with 150 hours of practice grabbing every opponent and putting exactly the right amount of enmity on each to hold it, just like people who talk about how loleasy Twintania is when it was previously thought nearly impossible.

Actually, I did (not could do, did) that frequently -- I used an ilvl55 GC weapon against full +1 DPS and held aggro just fine. If you couldn't, it's because you're bad.

Which is it?

[Giantbane]

Tank's dont do squat for enmity management.
They don't decide anything, let's not pretend they do.

For PLD? No, there's very little they decide. That's the point. PLD is supposed to be an easier tank to play because some people want that. They don't want to worry about de-buffs, different combos, or ability synergy. They just want to worry about controlling their enmity on multiple targets (single target shouldn't be an issue), using their buffs to stay alive and not standing in the fire.

WAR? There was a lot they could do. Unchained for more threat or Inner Beast for mitigation? Do I pick a combo that does the most enmity, the most damage, does the most mitigation (include SP in 2.1)? How soon do I have enough threat to work in a maim combo which boosts my BB even further? During AoE threat, can I work in a maim combo to boost my damage and refresh wrath stacks? During AoE threat, how soon could I swap to target cycling to conserve TP?

As a WAR, there was a lot that could go into your decisions on how you manage damage vs. mitigation vs. threat. Now, there is no decision, it's just derp derp derp all the way home.


Before, you needed to maintain your threat to stay above DPS. Now you can open up with damage buffs and high threat moves (WAR or PLD) and and just go make a sandwich while the rest of the team finishes the fight.

[Giantbane]

I don't understand the scaling argument. I have never seen any math that actually suggests that DPS enmity scales faster than Tank enmity.

And it doesn't really pass the smell test either. A PLD just doing his Rage of Halone combo generates 683 potency of enmity per GCD without using any off GCD abilities, fight or flight or shield oath. How many damage classes can maintain that kind of potency per attack?

And that's just the baseline threat. Throw in damage buffs (fight or flight, unchained, berserk), off GCD abilities and the ~15-20% boost that old shield oath/defiance used to supply and I don't see how any of the DPS classes can scale faster. Even with DPS gaining more damage stats on their accessories (if you don't include crafted gear), I find it difficult they will be able to keep pace with that kind of threat multiplier.

It doesn't even mesh well with most of the arguments in this thread. If enmity "wasn't a problem in 2.0" if you were well geared, then obviously being at the top level of Tank gear meant you could hold threat against the top level of DPS gear. Which tells me that scaling wasn't an issue here either.