Primals and Egis

[Nahara]

If my theory is correct, those who have fought primals retain memories of their power and abilities.

I love your explanation, but have to object to this.

If you follow the events of the Summoner quest line chronologically with the events of the main story line (ie. you were to look at them as if you were doing them at the same time), then this theory falls apart as soon as you hit Lv45 and proceed to unlock the Garuda-Egi.

Story-Mode Garuda (which you do as early as Lv44) does not summon Suparna and Chirada, but the Garuda-Egi that you fight does. If your theory were correct, Garuda-Egi in that fight should not have been able to summon Egi versions of Suparna and Chirada, because we would have had no idea such a thing was possible until fighting her Hard Mode variant at Lv50.

[Niniyo]

I love your explanation, but have to object to this.

I think it's still possible that most of the explanation is correct, but it's just slight different?

We fight story Garuda and gain her crystal and knowledge of her powers and abilities. Not all of her powers and abilities, but enough to basically reach out and connect this creature we're created with the "essence" of Garuda. Then, having connected our puppet to true Garuda, she can then use all of her abilities, but because of the relative power of her "container", those powers aren't as powerful as when she is called by the Ixal.

While the -egi battles are similar to their primal counterpart, there are differences in each (iirc). For example, I could have sworn Ifrit-egi called out a bunch of fire sprites during our fight, but not in the story (or hard mode). Obviously they should be able to, but the choose to against the summoner, but not against the group.

[Wolfandre]

For example, I could have sworn Ifrit-egi called out a bunch of fire sprites during our fight, but not in the story (or hard mode). Obviously they should be able to, but the choose to against the summoner, but not against the group.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Fire Sprites that were in that fight were naturally drawn to the rampant aether in the surrounding area. Could have even been a backlash and formed from said aether. I don't think they were summoned, per se.

Also, Moose, I am actually in line with you way of thinking on aether and the primals. Just one thing bothers me: The primals have memories.

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

I dunno. Part of this is sleepy-Wolf talking, and the other part is me not having full access to the cutscenes to back myself up. I'll do more theorizing over here. *wave*

[Norondor]

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

[Wolfandre]

I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

That may be true, but it still makes it an impossibility that they are created anew every time they are summoned. They have recollection of previous events, personal views on them, et all. Something the zealot summoners of the beast tribes likely would not be brazen enough to do. Though, I do think that you're on the right track.

No, I am beginning to think that aether is just life-stuff. Garuda existed in Ixal legend, as far as we are told, about 500 years prior to her first summoning. And it is widely known that the Ascians taught the beast tribes how to summon. I am beginning to believe that they 'taught' them how to 'summon' by giving them the knowledge of how to access large amounts of aether and romantically spicing up creation methods using aether. Aether that was released at Silvertear Falls by Garlemald. Whom they, in turn, were guided by the Ascians to do so.

So the Ixal create their goddess from the aether, who is made purely thereof, but is just a piece of life among the rest of the aether.

I think I just came to the detailed conclusion that Moose came to months ago. Oye.

Anyway, where does that leave Egis? I think memories, and the recent introduction of the beast tribe quests, can help us understand that.

In the summoner quest line, it is stated that that you needed to triumph over the primal in order to command some of its power. That, as was mentioned previously, implies that you need to have been exposed to them in person. Similar to not being able to teleport to some place you've never been to. You need knowledge of your goal in order to achieve it.

Now, most recently, in the beast tribe quests, the leader of the Amals that you are aiding (sorry, game is down again and I can't check specifics like names and spellings.../blush) states that he can detect Ifrit in your aura, so he has little doubt over your claim of defeating him. This means that contact with the primals does indeed leave some sort of marker on you, and it sounds like it's the stench of aspected aether.

So now I know what Garuda looks like, I know how she fights, I have experienced (rather painfully) the effects of wind-aspected aether. I've also got her stench on me. Now, doesn't that sound like a great start to making my own Garuda? Now to just head to a heavily wind-aspected environment, focus on my memories, and cheat.

Yes, cheat. Arcanists make magic happen by being smart, not by dipping into personal aether wells or the aether of the environment. Carbuncle happens because it would have happened anyway, I just figured out how to make it happen when I want it to.

So now I use the same techniques when creating my own Garuda. I take some already-existing aether, form it how I like, suppress it, and assign it to myself (via my Garuda-stink). Now, whenever I need it, I can summon my little Garuda whenever I want, as it already exists within the aether as a form of life that I shaped right from the aether. I just need to make it happen.

If I hadn't come across Garuda, had the Ascians not influenced the Ixal into creating her, had the Ixal theology of hundreds of years ago not thought her up, and if I used the same method I mentioned earlier, my wind Egi could look like anything. Typhoon, perhaps or Valefor. It just looks like Garuda because that's what I have come to believe is wind aether, so it heavily influences my memories.

Arcanists play with the aether to ridiculous levels, yet, they have absolutely no impact on the aether balance because they aren't changing the flow of aether. They're just taking what is already there and making what they want out of it. Arcanists are kind of like gods, to be poetic about it.