Primals and Egis

[shinros]

Hence me saying that I wished the summoner quests actually gave us more lore on the primals and the egi's since most of the quests came down to a power grab and dealing with an insane guy who did not lend anything to the story. The only interesting part was that ascian appearing at the end I wish to know more about that.

[Enkidoh]

Not wishing to throw cold water on any of these interesting ideas debated here, but I've been looking through my screenshots taken so far in ARR, and I noticed some interesting dialogue in a discussion with Minfilia and Thancred in the cutscene that occurs following story-mode Ifrit's defeat, which goes into the true nature of the Primals, how they are formed, and the actual process of summoning, which hasn't really been stated yet:

Thancred: "Now, aether exists throughout creation. It flows through all life, and permeates the very air that we breathe. Alas, this alone will not suffice to sustain the likes of Ifrit. Nay, he and his kind require a more concentrated source of aether-crystals."
Minfilia: "It is for this reason that incidents involving crystals can often be traced back to a Primal."
Thancred: "Which leaves us with the why of the abductions. To understand this, you must first understand how Primals are born. When all is well with the world, Primals possess no physical form. Their essence is dispersed across the great river of aether."
Minfilia: "However, when the world is plunged into chaos, those who worship the Primals cry out to their gods for deliverance from suffering. These cries serve as a beacon towards which a Primal's essence is irresistibly drawn. It is this coming together- or 'aetheric coalescence'- which grants the beings physical form. Once born, a Primal gains strength from it's followers' worship. The more numerous and fervent they are, the more powerful their god becomes."

So basically, this explains not only how Primals can be defeated and then be endlessly re-summoned as though nothing happened, it also serves to explain the egi version used by SMNs - they are literally just a mere sliver of a Primal's essence, as a Primal's potency and power is directly linked to how many followers they have. A single summoner just doesn't have that same power of zealousness behind them, no matter how strong they may think they are mentally.

[Wolfandre]

snip

I don't know. I believe all that really implies is that Summoners (SMN) worship the Primals and the minor form of the Primals, the Egis, is their prayers manifest. Granted, one would still need to defeat the Primal in order to have their aetheric mark on them, but what is to stop, say, the Tempered from summong Egis? One could argue the Soul Crystal allows us that power, possibly by exponentially increasing the power of our prayer through previous owners of the crystal?

I'm not wont to think this is the case for SMNs, however. We use magic and knowledge of aetheric properties to call forth the Egis, not elaborate prayer. At least, that is not what has been going on in the job quests. Or, rather, if it has and I missed a whole lot, I'm gonna be pretty upset. :P

Now, I can wave my arms around and theorize all I like, but we still don't have enough data, despite being explicitly told in your quote, to draw and formal conclusions. Which sucks, because theorizing is fun.

[Anonymoose]

Which of course brings us back to what are essences and so, what's up with Moggle? Which beings us back to strawman theories, which brings us back to in-game evidence, lol. If the Ascians were able to teach the same method used to summon primals to moogles so that they'd summon a bedtime story, either there's more to summoning than Minfilia thinks or there's more to Moggle than she gives them credit for. The main reason my theory stuck with the former is because it better explains Louisoix, fits in with an obscure clue Fernehalwes gave once upon a time, and makes me think harder.

It could very well be as simple as Minfilia says, though. We'd do well to not forget that.

[Skyhound]

snip

Honestly there is very little difference between prayers and commands. It's simply the mindset that separates them. SMNs use commands to summon forth the Egis because they believe that Primals are beneath them. While the beast tribes regard them as gods that are above them. It's all about perspective. I imagine the tempered could summon Egis if they wanted to, they simply don't know how. Remember, the player character is very skilled at what they do. Summoning is actually very difficult to accomplish.

[Skies]

Just a note on summoning...
Summoning, far as I know, is an allagan art.

The Allagan were actually quite... Adept at binding and controlling entieties. Ultima Weapon could absorb and use primals as fuel, there is what you realize at the end of Turn 5 and there is, also, the possibility that Midgarsormr was dragon of near godlike power (though not a primal, still a living beast) enslaved by them.

Perhaps there is more to summoning than we notice.

[Darske]

Perhaps there is more to summoning than we notice.

I believe this is probably the case. The Ascians are the Paragons the primals speak of, correct? I think it's very interesting that the primals all have such a hunger for aether and corrupt their beast tribes, and that Moggle, summoned in the same way, has a similar effect on the moogles. Although not a primal in the strictest sense, perhaps it's the method of summoning that makes things bad to the point where we need to put them down.

I believe that we'll learn something along the lines of the neutral theory, and that the Ascian summoning methods are distorting the primals from their true nature. As to what that nature is, I can only speculate that it's something more noble and pure than what we end up seeing.

[AnimaAnimus]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up since there are too many pages to read, but there was a quest that told a tale about garuda not being bloodthirsty or "evil" by any means, but a great deity for her ppl. It was only after she battled a defeated, then I believe devoured a serpent to protect her ppl she went mad and had a thirst for blood. So that kindda blows the violent primal theory out since it proves not all primals are violent

[Wolfandre]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up since there are too many pages to read, but there was a quest that told a tale about garuda not being bloodthirsty or "evil" by any means, but a great deity for her ppl. It was only after she battled a defeated, then I believe devoured a serpent to protect her ppl she went mad and had a thirst for blood. So that kindda blows the violent primal theory out since it proves not all primals are violent

In addition to Enkidoh's post, that would imply that Garuda existed as a goddess before she was summoned by the Ixal. Now, yes, this is what the Ixal believe, but the Ixal only gained the ability to summon her recently, as it was seemingly impossible to do so without the seal on Silvertear Lake being broken by the Empire.

You could say, "Then yes, Wolf, she did exist," but then that would mean that that myth about her was from before the seal was placed on Silvertear Lake, which was, what, the Third Astral Era? Maybe earlier? Did the Ixal exist then as we know them today? We don't have an exact date as to when that myth was supposed to take place, and since Garuda couldn't manifest while that seal was in place, I'm gonna chalk it up to horse-hockey.

[Anonymoose]

In the Gridania story they talk about the Ixal targetting the tree, which seemed like a new, rather brazen, thing they were trying to do both against the elementals and Gridania.

If I remember correctly, it was the Ascian paragon of the Ixal that commanded them to attack that tree to destroy an important crystal by allowing Garuda to consume it.

In addition to Enkidoh's post, that would imply that Garuda existed as a goddess before she was summoned by the Ixal. Now, yes, this is what the Ixal believe, but the Ixal only gained the ability to summon her recently, as it was seemingly impossible to do so without the seal on Silvertear Lake being broken by the Empire.

This is one of the original bits of confusion that led to my theory about primals being thoughtforms - that all it takes is your belief in something to be able to summon it, regardless of whether or not it ever actually existed. The Ixal chose the Twelveswood (Tinolqa) as their home 550 years ago, and even then they worshiped Garuda, the Empress of Birds. After they began to summon her, however, this title seems to have disappeared in favor of The Lady of the Vortex, which relates to the wind aspect of her summoning crystals more than anything in her legend. Of course, part of this drives me in a different direction than my own theory - the Ixal lost their feathers about 150 years ago after roosting in Xelphatol and began to worship her more zealously because they believed the Empress of Birds could return them to the sky - one of their motivations for summoning her in the first place. I always wondered if perhaps Garuda's "essence" had something to do with that misfortune, which would imply that she indeed existed at least as an essence before 1562. Then again, perhaps she didn't exist yet and something in Xelphatol is what caused their transformation. I tend to go in circles with myself on this topic.

I just can't grasp how all of the primals we've seen from prior to the Sixth Astral Era are referred to as Elder yet somehow our current ones existed in some form before 1562, a time in which the physical and aetherial realms were in balance and primals could not exist, if it's not belief-based. Until I see something contradicting it, I just can't let go of the idea that there's something to the thoughtform theory, that the primals are physical manifestations of zealous belief, mere icons... or eikons...